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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85576: Jul 24th 2018 at 11:42:00 AM

Tien only gets off five or six shots with it in the Manga. In the anime he's spamming it non-stop.

One thing I noticed is that Tien doesn't use it on 23rd TB Goku because he doesn't think he's fast enough to hit him with it.

Which means that not only is Tien within spitting distance of Semi-Perfect Cell with it during the Cell saga, but he had to be fast enough to legitimately hit Semi-Perfect Cell with it.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 6:52:09 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85577: Jul 24th 2018 at 12:03:05 PM

He was able to hit Cell the first time with it, creating a huge hole that Cell needed to fly out of.

Basically, he got lucky in that Cell's movement was limited (he had to fly up).

I assume from that point on, he was just spamming fast enough that Cell never recovered from one attack before being hit with the next, hence why the latter didn't just fire a blast at him, or even fire a blast to dig through the ground and out of the hole.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85578: Jul 24th 2018 at 12:15:08 PM

Except Tien lands it on Cell again after Cell flies out of the hole.

Not to mention if Cell isn't fast enough to fly a short distance out of a hole before Tien can land it again the speed gap must not be very high.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Malady (X-Troper)
#85579: Jul 24th 2018 at 1:00:00 PM

What trope is this use of Sucker Punch? 'Cause Sucker Punch isn't a trope.

Anime.Dragon Ball Z Resurrection F:

  • Locked Out of the Loop:
    • Frieza had no idea that Vegeta had become a Super Saiyan, been one for years, and was almost Goku's perfect equal having become a SSGSS himself. This comes back to bite Frieza in the ass as he essentially has to fight two guys of the same power when he only beat one by [[Sucker Punch fighting dirty.]]

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85580: Jul 24th 2018 at 1:05:59 PM

[up]x4 Cell was distracted by the first hit, Goku wouldn't be in a one-on-one fight. Ten wasn't talking about consecutive hits.

The Shin Kikoho scene is still really implausible butI don't think that comparison is apt.

It's clearly impossible for 23rd Budokai Goku to have a greater lead on Ten than Semi-Perfect Cell did.

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85582: Jul 24th 2018 at 1:46:17 PM

"It's clearly impossible for 23rd Budokai Goku to have a greater lead on Ten than Semi-Perfect Cell did."

Why.

I mean, it's certainly implausible. But this is Dragonball, there's a lot of implausible things that have happened.

Semi-Perfect Cell actually flies out of the hole and then gets nailed again. Heck, it's actually not possible for him to just have his guard down because we have seen that much stronger characters than Cell without their guard up are seriously injured by much, much smaller things than a Shin-Kikoho.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 8:47:25 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85583: Jul 24th 2018 at 1:54:15 PM

Because Android Arc Ten is weaker than base Vegeta, described SS Goku as being "in an entirely separate dimension", was helpless against 17 who is weaker than 16, who could not injured Semi-Perfect Cell with a direct punch to the face.

23rd Budokai Ten was faster than the weighted Goku, and was still able to hurt Goku. There is also absolutely no room for 23rd Budokai Goku to be hundreds of times stronger than Ten.

As if this wasn't all screamingly obvious.

That guard thing is only true of Super, and even then inconsistently applied. We see many strong characters take hits off-guard without being totally wrecked by them.

edit: Check the manga. We don't ever see Semi move while getting Kikoho'd.

Edited by Saiga on Jul 24th 2018 at 6:56:27 PM

TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#85584: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:20:22 PM

[up] They weren't talking about strength, they're talking exclusively speed. As in Tien, while leagues weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell, might have been close in terms of mobility and reaction time. Which isn't out of the question given that Tien has to be getting SOMETHING from all the training he's been doing, and power doesn't seem to be it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85585: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:22:29 PM

He really doesn't have to be getting anything out of it, and power and speed scale with one another, unless specifically noted.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85586: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:28:21 PM

Tien has time to outright shout a warning before returning to firing.

Also, Cell does get out of the hole before Tien hits him again. Volume 25, page 211.

However, I have considered that 23rd TB Tien didn't know how to read Ki, so I guess you could argue that after learning that at Kami's that he made a real difference in terms of his aiming ability.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 9:32:28 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85587: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:42:26 PM

[up][up][up] He gets something, its just not enough to actually matter.

I thought we already established everyone but the Saiyans suck?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85588: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:43:24 PM

Sometimes cyborgs don't suck

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85589: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:44:32 PM

Actually it’s just Goku who doesn’t suck.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85590: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:45:03 PM

Nope, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks suck too. Vegeta only sucks slightly less than Goku. And everyone else sucks way harder than them besides Beerus and Whis.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:46:56 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85591: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:46:48 PM

Oh Vegeta sucks as hard as the rest of them.

They just gotta give him a consolation prize lest he starts crying like a big whiny man-baby.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Malady (X-Troper)
#85592: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:46:54 PM

Twisted Gear - Yes, obviously one of those tropes, but I dunno which, 'cause I dunno the show.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85593: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:47:14 PM

And of all the movie villains to bring back and suddenly make stronger than Beerus-, they choose one of the two Saiyans.

-unless my Beerus Hakais Broly theory is correct

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85594: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:48:25 PM

Slim, why do you hate Vegeta so much lol. Like geez, you never have anything nice to say about him and you seem to constantly try to downplay him at any opportunity. He's not even my favorite character either, but damn.

[up] I mean, Goku and Vegeta were at least on par with Beerus by the end of Super. This is simply a restoration of the natural order. Saiyans > everyone.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:48:59 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85595: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:50:00 PM

I'm gonna guess... because his fans are pretty vocal?

(and they're also pretty common, I'd argue Vegeta might be more popular than Goku in the western fanbase)

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85596: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:50:21 PM

[up][up] Heheh just think of it as a Sitcom Archnemesis kinda thing. tongue

Nothing wrong with throwing shade at a buttmonkey after all, heheh.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 24th 2018 at 2:49:58 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TwistedGear Don't know how to pilot this thing Since: Jun, 2014
Don't know how to pilot this thing
#85597: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:50:35 PM

[up][up] I know that, But he's always training, the idea that he's stopped getting stronger but is still getting faster would explain his decline alot better than "He just can't catch up." Dudes fallen behind Krillin and other non-Saiyans despite training more than anyone other than Vegeta. It's certainly not the canon reason, but there is no REAL in-universe reason because Toriyama doesn't give those out very often, and it's interesting so I'll take it over "Training just isn't enough to bridge the gap."

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85598: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:52:43 PM

But Vegeta isn't a butt monkey. Being weaker than Goku still means he's stronger than literally everyone else. Its like calling someone poor for only being the second richest person in the world.

[up] You can think what you want, but the literal reason is that he's just too weak. Plain and simple. Mountain training is shown to not really do anything and he never had his potential unlocked like Krillin did on Namek.

So yea, Tien sucks. Sorry. Even if he did get anything from his training, it doesn't really add anything meaningful and you yourself said there's no explanation and making one up doesn't automatically make it ok.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:54:13 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85599: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:54:29 PM

True but he’s still weaker than Goku.

That hurts him more than anything else in the world.

Well I guess next to his family.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85600: Jul 24th 2018 at 2:55:03 PM

I mean, he's kind of passed the point of it bothering him that much anymore. That was kind of the point of the Buu saga.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:54:48 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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