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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84902: Jul 10th 2018 at 2:06:08 PM

Gine isnt a housewife, but she has the most passive and stereotypically feminine job of a Saiyan we've seen, because she's too gentle and not cut out as a fighter - traits we'd never seen in the male Saiyans.

There is an obvious difference in the writing with her with her, and calling her job important is patronizing and willfully ignoring this disconnect.

But that's not the only reason people dislike Minus. It also makes Bardock seem more caring, through his unique relationship with Gine and sending Goku off out of concern. The retcons (such as Freeza knowing of Super Saiyan God) seemed completely unnessecary and like they were just a means of referencing the new material.

And, overall, this story had no point to it whatsoever. We didn't see anything new or interesting, it was short and covered something we'd already seen. Having Toriyama's version could have been interesting, but he didn't add a new spin to the backstory or anything, just gave a bare bones retelling and through Gine in there.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#84903: Jul 10th 2018 at 2:36:04 PM

I don't recall it ever being said that Gine was too gentle, just that she wasn't that great of a fighter. Never said why, just that she is.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84904: Jul 10th 2018 at 2:47:45 PM

I didn't know Saiga made that post until I saw the Ichigo avatar and thought it was someone posting suspiciously like him.

Yea, Minus isn't bad...it's just wholly pointless and adds nothing to Bardock's character that's really that interesting.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84905: Jul 10th 2018 at 2:51:31 PM

The typo is what tipped you off isn't it?

But...uh, that video's entirely fan animated?

Edited by randomness4 on Jul 10th 2018 at 2:51:43 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84906: Jul 10th 2018 at 3:04:50 PM

<Watches the fan animation>

[tup]

Gine isnt a housewife, but she has the most passive and stereotypically feminine job of a Saiyan we've seen, because she's too gentle and not cut out as a fighter - traits we'd never seen in the male Saiyans.

There is an obvious difference in the writing with her with her, and calling her job important is patronizing and willfully ignoring this disconnect.

The thing with Gine is especially strange because Toriyama has said he doesn't like writing soft women, so you'd think when given the chance to write Goku's mom, she'd be not unlike a typical Saiyan, but for some reason...we got Gine. The fact that the first important female saiyan in the franchise had such a personality and job is very, very noticeable in a franchise where the ladies rarely stand at the same level as the men.

But that's not the only reason people dislike Minus. It also makes Bardock seem more caring, through his unique relationship with Gine and sending Goku off out of concern. The retcons (such as Freeza knowing of Super Saiyan God) seemed completely unnessecary and like they were just a means of referencing the new material.

Yeah, say what you will about Toei's story, but their take on Bardock works much better. It doesn't help that Toriyama seems to be softening the saiyans, almost whitewashing them sometimes (or you could argue giving them more depth beyond evil assholes who worked for an evil asshole, and I can acknowledge that's a valid interpretation).

And, overall, this story had no point to it whatsoever. We didn't see anything new or interesting, it was short and covered something we'd already seen. Having Toriyama's version could have been interesting, but he didn't add a new spin to the backstory or anything, just gave a bare bones retelling and through Gine in there.

Yup, pretty much wasn't needed, even if we all wanted to know more about Goku's mom. Plus, I thought he was trying to avoid the idea that Goku was special in some way (maybe on Earth, but as Saiyans go, he was bellow average, and wound't have been anything worthwhile if he'd still been among his people). The story might have been fine if he'd just made Gine a fighter like everyone else. Goku didn't need an origin for his kindness. The blow to the head and concussion did that just fine.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84907: Jul 10th 2018 at 3:22:35 PM

Gine had a gentle personality and wasn’t cut out as a warrior, being repeatedly saved from danger by Bardock.

Sauce

[up] I agree. I can't tell if that was Toriyama's intention with making Bardock and Gine kinder, but if so that was a mistake.

I also think it fails to add depth to the Saiyans if the positive traits are only found in a handful of exceptions. Bardock having some measure of love in him could have been interesting if that was true of all the warlike Saiyans and we got to see that.

Edited by Saiga on Jul 10th 2018 at 8:26:05 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84908: Jul 10th 2018 at 3:27:52 PM

Plus it ended up turning Goku's backstort into an actual rip-offs of Supermans.

Sure there were already similarties before but they were different enough in the broader details that they were a fun parrallel.

But now because they are good parents saving their son, Bardock & Gine are basically space-pirate Jor-El & Lara.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2018 at 3:28:24 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
galleyfox Since: Feb, 2018
#84909: Jul 10th 2018 at 3:54:41 PM

Minus is regarded as an abomination, because it did a hack job on the core narrative of the TV Special. The whole point of the special was to show how an uncaring, self-absorbed father comes to respect his son. The story begins with Bardock wanting nothing to do with his weak son and concludes with Bardock smiling at his grown up child's feats. The tragedy stems from the fact that Bardock is so self-absorbed that he believes the visions are setting up Bardock himself as the hero, and only in his dying moment does he finally acknowledge that instead Goku will be the hero against Frieza.

Then Minus comes along and shits all over Bardock's character development. He loved his son all along and was an overall decent man disregarding the pillaging and murdering. It's like, wow, that television special just went right over Toriyama's head.

Edited by galleyfox on Jul 10th 2018 at 4:04:58 AM

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#84910: Jul 10th 2018 at 6:03:32 PM

I got my new drawing tablet in today, so here's a Broly.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84911: Jul 10th 2018 at 6:29:33 PM

He looks pretty demented.

Like, you can hear him saying does Broly have to choke a bitch?

Except he wouldn't actually say it. His hands would already be around all our throats.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84912: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:08:27 PM

Bardock' arc feels a bit weak because he became proud of Goku because Goku turned out to be strong not because he realized there were other things to be proud of

I know this is a battle manga but still. Bardock's view on what makes a son worthwhile doesn't change. Goku died for reasons completely unrelated to Bardock and off-screen for the special

The special and the character have other stuff going for it but Bardock's dying moment of proud that Goku is glaring at Freeza isn't that notable

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 10th 2018 at 11:08:58 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84913: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:15:06 PM

I find it worked because Bardock lived & died a terrible person.

He was nothing more than a barbaric brute who never cared for either of his sons & only started to acknowledge Goku as his son when he saw him doing something that indirectly benefited him.

He was completely self-satisfied in his death & was only proud of Goku because he could project his own shit on the guy on the assumption that he's fighting for Saiyan vengeance.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2018 at 8:17:33 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#84914: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:16:56 PM

Huh. Did not know that

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84915: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:19:55 PM

I agree. I don't think the interpretation of Bardock growing proud of Goku really suits, it seems more like the way to cap off Bardock's visions and a sort of consolation for him.

I don't mind Toriyama dropping the entire vision angle, that isn't a necessary part of his character. I just mind him not doing anything else with Bardock.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84916: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:36:30 PM

It’s what makes the whole thing hilarious because that is exactly what it is, a consolation. [lol]

Bardock is in despair & at the last moment gets a vision that basically make sure him “Huh so at least someone is gonna kill Frieza.”

He’s happy because of a situation that he has no actual understanding or context of when in reality Goku has disavowed his Saiyan heritage except for a slight acknowledgement due to honoring a dying man’s favor.

Hell Goku killed his brother & Bardock’s other son because Goku hated the Saiyan way. I’m pretty sure of Goku & Bardock met, they would not get along at all.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2018 at 8:36:26 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84917: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:36:40 PM

Yea, it feels like Bardock's final moments are less "I'm so proud of my son for avenging me and our race" and more "Oh good, he'll actually be good for something". Its still a "proud of you" moment, just not for the reasons you'd think.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84918: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:47:59 PM

Imagine if his last vision was Goku defying Saiyan arc Vegeta and then getting messed up by the Ape.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84919: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:48:47 PM

It should've been, bring in that despair.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84920: Jul 10th 2018 at 8:56:15 PM

"Although honestly fuck the royal family"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84921: Jul 10th 2018 at 9:01:24 PM

Naw, the best one is still the one when he sees Goku team up with Freeza.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#84922: Jul 10th 2018 at 9:04:25 PM

[up]"C'mon Dad, it was the only way to save the universe!"

"So what! What's the universe ever done for any of us?"

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84923: Jul 10th 2018 at 9:19:12 PM

“Well don’t we kinda live in it?”

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84924: Jul 10th 2018 at 11:14:35 PM

I like how in Xenoverse 2, after Bardock sees Goku and Freeza fighting on Namek, he sees Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Golden Freeza fighting on Earth, and he's just really confused and in awe of their power. I would love for Xenoverse 3 to have Bardock see even further in the future to Goku and Freeza teaming up to fight Jiren and just being furious.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#84925: Jul 11th 2018 at 12:09:05 AM

Throw in visions of Goku Black for maximum confusion.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy

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