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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84301: Jun 3rd 2018 at 7:58:07 PM

The problem is that it's being used to try and disregard scaling.

Scaling has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the work.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#84302: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:00:00 PM

I'm not trying to say the Androids are weak or anything, just that they're clearly close-combat specialists and while obviously superior to Frieza in this regard we don't really know enough to say where they stand on other aspects of combat. They fought surprisingly little.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84303: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:01:52 PM

Hit is probably the weakest character. Since his laser beams pass through objects, did he even blow anything up? Androids would be the next weakest. Nappa is pretty strong. He blew up a city. He's tied with Omega Shenron, who also blew up a city. I think Goku Black blew up parts of a city, so he's weaker than both of them. Beerus blew up a planet a couple times, so he's on par with Frieza and Kid buu.

Anyway, I think I've found out who is the most undisputedly powerful character in Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball Heroes exonerated.

edited 3rd Jun '18 8:03:20 PM by Moth13

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84304: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:02:40 PM

Whether they're close combat based is pointless, the bottom line is that they're stronger than Namek Saga Freeza,

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#84305: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:03:19 PM

Draogn Ball discrediting badasses since the 80s. tongue

"Mai waifu."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84306: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:03:30 PM

Oh wait Duh. Broly blew up South Galaxy. His power is Maximum. Confirmed by science.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84307: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:06:18 PM

I've heard this. Seems legit

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
ZeroDozer Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!! from Santo André, SP, Brazil Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!
#84308: Jun 3rd 2018 at 11:00:54 PM

People forget Goku and Bererus almost imploded the whole universe when they first clashed.

Growing up, it's like a civil war, don't turn away, it's something you can't ignore...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84309: Jun 4th 2018 at 1:01:47 AM

Yeah that's not what Show, Don't Tell means, like at all. We've already got the examples from across the franchise that go against this logic (Beerus in BOG has some of the first feats in the series) as Moth pointed out, and I see no reason to pick on the Androids.

Vegeta actually mentions that his blast that 18 nonchalantly tanked could destroy the Earth. And he's stronger than the Goku that's stronger than the earlier Goku that's stronger than the Trunks' that's stronger than the Mecha Freeza that's stronger than the 100% Freeza that's stronger than the 70% Freeza that blew up Namek.

The Androids do use ki blasts in the future timeline, 18 blasts up a city because she was gamer raging. 18 also uses a Kienzan in the Boo arc. They don't use them much, but then they don't fight much to begin with.

The Spirit Bomb (to me at least) should not be an attack that's dependent on the power of the other dude it's being used against. It already had the disadvantage of needing lots of time to form, so it didn't need the same I'm just stronger so I win drawback that every other character gets hit with.

This doesn't make sense to me. How could hitting someone with a mass of raw force NOT be dependent on the power of the person receiving said force? The Genki Dama is purely an attack move. It makes sense that it factors in the recipients' defense.

I never got this criticism, and I've seen it apply to this kind of scenario many times before Dragon Ball did it. It's like crying over characters dying when the Dragon Balls can just bring them back. The civilian characters in the new timeline are still the exact same characters you know.

That's not the same thing at all. They're not the same characters because they haven't had the same experiences. The ones who died have never come back, which is the complete opposite of the scenario you tried to compare it to.

Otherwise Trunks wouldn't have any angst over Bulma dying the first time. He'd just be like 'oh well, back in time and I see mom again. Yeah don't bother helping me save my timeline guys, it's fucking dispensable'.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84310: Jun 4th 2018 at 1:30:12 AM

People seem to forget that the Dragon Balls can be easily disabled and that if everyone else dies while Kakarrot's stuck fighting the main bad guy...no one is gonna be around to ensure the use of the Dragon Balls.

The Dragon Balls are only useful if the villain is either far away from them or is already defeated.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84311: Jun 4th 2018 at 7:13:49 AM

This doesn't make sense to me. How could hitting someone with a mass of raw force NOT be dependent on the power of the person receiving said force? The Genki Dama is purely an attack move. It makes sense that it factors in the recipients' defense.

Because (1) while it is just raw force, it's also the energy of multiple beings scrunched together into one ball: with every other attack, you're getting hit with just all the energy that one dude can muster (barring team up attacks), but with this, you're getting hit with all the energy that ten or twenty dudes, their dogs, and their potted plants have...along with the fracking sun too!

(2) If Genki is no different from every other energy in that it can used, then what's the point of it? It's functionally as useless as any other attack used on someone more powerful than you.

The attack already has plenty of weaknesses: the time it takes to gather, that it can be interrupted, that Goku is totally vulnerable while gathering the energy, and in the case of the Buu fight, that he has to get people to give him that power, and they might not be willing.

I just don't think it needs a Oh, and it will fail if the other guy is more powerful too. That just makes it like any other attack, and it should be more than that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#84312: Jun 4th 2018 at 7:34:07 AM

1 doesn't matter. Energy doesn't become special just because its gathered from many people, nor do they contribute all of their energy, since they would be dead. A hundred thousand ones is smaller than a million. 2, since Ki is composed of Genki, Yuuki and Shoki, there isn't any reason it should be better than regular Ki. In normal circumstances, its a special technique that allows a weaker individual to attack with more energy that they can muster by themselves, not a one-hit kill move, and never has been. There's no reason for it to be special unless you buy into the hype whenever Goku uses it to finish off his opponent in the movies.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#84313: Jun 4th 2018 at 7:52:38 AM

Speaking of really forced segues...

[down]Now it does.

edited 4th Jun '18 7:54:48 AM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84314: Jun 4th 2018 at 7:53:19 AM

Video doesn't work.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84315: Jun 4th 2018 at 7:57:35 AM

Kaio ken is a power multiplier

I guess the spirit dama could have been one too

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84316: Jun 4th 2018 at 8:49:08 AM

He makes a really good point, that Bulma suggested using the Dragon Balls to find Gero's lab 3 years ago when she knows exactly where it is now, and it's not presented as new information she learned about in the three years since.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84317: Jun 4th 2018 at 8:58:32 AM

Everyone was apparently an idiot when deciding what to do about the future android attack

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84318: Jun 4th 2018 at 9:18:46 AM

A lot of good points in that video.

I was hoping he'd get to Androids 16, 17 and 18 in this video but I guess he's taking it slow.

The Bulma thing only compounds the mistakes made in earlier chapters by the heroes.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84319: Jun 4th 2018 at 9:55:09 AM

Phew. I get the feeling that I'm gonna like the Cell Saga a lot less before this arc is done.

Then again, being on this site kinda made me more aware of its numerous flaws already.

1 doesn't matter. Energy doesn't become special just because its gathered from many people, nor do they contribute all of their energy, since they would be dead. A hundred thousand ones is smaller than a million. 2, since Ki is composed of Genki, Yuuki and Shoki, there isn't any reason it should be better than regular Ki. In normal circumstances, its a special technique that allows a weaker individual to attack with more energy that they can muster by themselves, not a one-hit kill move, and never has been. There's no reason for it to be special unless you buy into the hype whenever Goku uses it to finish off his opponent in the movies.

So in other words, it's my fault for thinking the technique was far more special than it actually was.

Which, to be fair, is nothing new for me. I do get tired of being completely wrong though. One of these days, one of you guys has to screw up.

I'm looking at you Pope. Throw me a bone here.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84321: Jun 4th 2018 at 1:42:13 PM

Ya know the music that played during Kid Buu's defeat in Kai, eh not very good.

Like not saying it's bad but I'm pretty sure I hard that OST a million times before,

edited 4th Jun '18 1:42:22 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84322: Jun 4th 2018 at 1:45:30 PM

Gee, it's been a while since I'd seen you here.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#84323: Jun 4th 2018 at 3:08:40 PM

@ Vegeta vs. 18: I just checked the chapter; Vegeta doesn't actually say that the blast that hit her could destroy the Earth. What he says is he's holding back because if he goes all out, he'll destroy the Earth. So if 18 could survive a world-destroying attack is still ambiguous.

edited 4th Jun '18 3:08:55 PM by HamburgerTime

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84324: Jun 4th 2018 at 3:14:18 PM

Unless otherwise specified, like with Dyspo, all stats in Dragon Ball increase linearly with Power Levels. If 18 can beat up Vegeta, she can also beat up Freeza and effortlessly tank his blasts. Someone who is 3 times stronger than someone else also is 3 times faster, 3 times more durable, and has 3 times more destructive potential.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84325: Jun 4th 2018 at 3:22:49 PM

I mean, it makes sense. Toriyama was always saying he was looking for easy ways to convey certain facts right.

So just saying A beats C because B is stronger than C and A is more powerful than C makes it very easy.

One Strip! One Strip!

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