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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84251: Jun 3rd 2018 at 5:28:25 AM

Uh...no it doesn't.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84252: Jun 3rd 2018 at 7:11:54 AM

The Spirit Bomb only really failed with Freeza. Against Vegeta it was absolutely necessary to contribute to his ultimate defeat. It just didn't take him out completely.

edited 3rd Jun '18 7:12:15 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84253: Jun 3rd 2018 at 7:18:33 AM

[up][up][up] When Kuririn used it against Goku, Kaio told him to feel out Vegeta's evil ki and lock onto it. Then Goku tells Gohan to bounce it back because he's not evil.

It's ambiguous whether the second is a property of the Genki Dama or because it had been locked onto Vegeta's evil ki already.

Anyway, wanted to respond to some earlier stuff I missed...

Skipped through most of the conversation: the way I could see the To P working, would be having a universe vs. universe bracket: It starts with a 10 vs 10 fight, and the universe who loses all of its fighters gets eliminated, while its opponent advances to the next round, but with a catch: eliminated fighters stay eliminated.

The issue would be making a bracket. Of course the final round would be 7 vs. 11, and 6 would make it to the semifinals, but other than that...

I swear I've mentioned my idea before, but in case I hadn't or anyone hasn't read that... when Pushover first observed that we had the same number of universes as a traditional tournament bracket, I wondered about this.

I think that the 10 v 10 fights would really kill it though. It means the earlier rounds have the most fighters in them, and the strong characters are present for every battle because there is less to distract them. The first round would need to burn through fighters quite quickly, so that the fights didn't drag on forever and take up the majority of the screentime. It'd be really bad for the pacing if the vast majority of the arc was in round one of a tournament bracket. But I think that way you'd end up getting just as many complaints as the TOP - you've still got characters being ringed out quickly, especially in the first round (the fodder complaint), you're going to get a lot of backlash from any U 7 participants who don't make it through round 1 and it's even more questionable why Goku and Jiren don't do everything.

Half the universes would be gone after round 1, which means all their fighters need to go down in one fight, not leaving much time to spotlight the individuals. Things are more manageable after that point, but boy it'd be a slog for the first round especially when you have two universes fight each other who the audience aren't familiar with.

That's why I had come up with a somewhat opposing idea: same bracket idea, still 10 man teams and team battles, but each fighter can only participate in one round. So each universes has to decide how many members to commit to each round, since they need to leverage the need to win the current round vs the remaining rounds. U 7 and U 11 would know of each other from the exhibition so they'd be preparing to face each other in the final. The other universes would be similarly strategizing, or coming up with schemes of their own - one idea was that U 9 would agree to use their wish to bring back U 4 if they threw all their fighters at U 11 in the first round, trying to eliminate U 11 and disqualify themselves so that U 9 can move to the finals with more team members intact. This would then be a moment for U 11 to show off, and let us see all of U 4's fighters.

Now the biggest issue of this format, is that it means most universes won't get to show off their best fighters. My plan would have U 4 reveal all their stuff in round one due to their plan, U 9 would have the Trio de Dangers get fights in the exhibition matches and the rest in the tournament, but that still leaves four universes with incomplete showings. U 2, U 3 and U 10 this isn't necessarily SO bad for as the fact that we don't see their strongest in action could be used to save them for future development. But it's especially bad for Hit, a returning character who wouldn't get to do anything his team is eliminated in the semi-final. I considered that maybe U 7 would have like a 3 v 3 'bonus' match with U 6 after the tournament proper to resolve that, but I don't think it fits well.

So I think the battle royale is the best concept for a tournament with 80 fighters... it just wasn't handled well.

Another option would be for each universe to have two teams of five in the tournament, so there are 16 teams, adding another round and breaking things up. The Dark Tournament was 16 teams of 5 as well, and that worked out okay (although the tournament was also rigged to give Team Urameshi more relevance).

Will have to address the earlier God ki stuff later.

edited 3rd Jun '18 7:18:58 AM by Saiga

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84254: Jun 3rd 2018 at 7:19:03 AM

It does have some disadvantages to being used in a 1v1 fight so they should stop doing that

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84255: Jun 3rd 2018 at 7:53:51 AM

No, in-universe it just isn't enough. There's no contrived reason for it to fail, the enemies have just been way stronger than Goku. Vegeta DID come up with a way to make it better, but it required Mr Satan's coercion to actually be good. Hell, Goku even questions Vegeta's suggestion of using it, showing that its' in-universe performance is reflected in its reputation. Even though it's not dependent on the user's base strength, it's still dependent on your opponents' strength which meant that it got power crept fairly logically. And the charge time and vulnerability of the user means that it was never a great technique, only a last resort.

Looking at what you've written and thinking about things, I know you're right, but that only frustrates me more. It sounds like Toriyama's inability to put an upper limit on Power Levels made the technique as useless as many other attacks in the series.

The Spirit Bomb (to me at least) should not be an attack that's dependent on the power of the other dude it's being used against. It already had the disadvantage of needing lots of time to form, so it didn't need the same I'm just stronger so I win drawback that every other character gets hit with.

But that's entirely my opinion, and I acknowledge that I'm just being annoyed because things aren't the way I think they should be.

One Strip! One Strip!
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#84256: Jun 3rd 2018 at 8:00:05 AM

This Dragon Ball Legends game is dope

Is this the same thing as Heroes?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84257: Jun 3rd 2018 at 9:33:16 AM

...man, watching the latest dub episode of Super.

Knowing how pointless this all is makes it hard to watch.

Especially all the effort Trunks is putting into saving the people. While I get what Toei was trying to do, giving a face to all the people Trunks wanted to save was a waste since Mai was the only one important enough to actually save.

Then again, the entire execution is massively flawed. What was Toriyama thinking with that ending? What made him think destroying everything that meant something to Trunks would be a good conclusion?

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84258: Jun 3rd 2018 at 9:34:01 AM

Especially since they then don't put him in the main cast, they just bundle him off to a replacement world.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84259: Jun 3rd 2018 at 9:36:43 AM

Yeah. That too. But considering the Tournament of Power was a test to see if someone would restore other universes, I can get why they didn't bring him in....

...until you remember that he'd have another chance once the Super Dragonballs reset. It's really annoying that Trunks was pushed out in order to justify some of the choices of characters.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84260: Jun 3rd 2018 at 9:38:16 AM

I suppose it's to avoid clogging up the cast with Saiyans, but then they have no reason to not put in Goten and K. Trunks still, unless their strange disease that prevents them from ageing also prevents them from fighting.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84261: Jun 3rd 2018 at 9:42:23 AM

I mean, another timeline version of them is still them. The only difference is that there's now two Trunks and two Mais. Those people who died in the one timeline are still the same people who exist and live perfectly fine in the other timeline. They're not irreplaceable, since they were literally replaced by themselves.

I never got this criticism, and I've seen it apply to this kind of scenario many times before Dragon Ball did it. It's like crying over characters dying when the Dragon Balls can just bring them back. The civilian characters in the new timeline are still the exact same characters you know.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#84262: Jun 3rd 2018 at 10:58:28 AM

The ending of the Zamasu nonsense basically made the whole, sorry excuse for a plot irrelevant.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84263: Jun 3rd 2018 at 11:00:46 AM

Pretty much. This is a situation where someone really should have reigned Toriyama in (and Toei shouldn't have bothered trying to expand so much).

I have to admit though: it was unexpected.

Maybe if they'd managed to save a few more people so that that all the effort Trunks put in amounted to something...or maybe if they'd just used the Mafuuba like they'd planned instead of wasting it on a joke.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84264: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:06:50 PM

Hearing Future Trunks dialgue against Merged Zamasu makes me ask when DB start doing that cringy shit you see in JRPG's?

Seriously "The power of mortals" what fucking shit, no amount of excellent voice-acting can make that line good.

Especially since this is coming from the guy who killed Frieza, 17, & 18 while uttering few words.

edited 3rd Jun '18 1:07:12 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84265: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:13:20 PM

Well, let's be fair, he was spouting similar shit against 17 and 18, so it's not like Trunks didn't have that in him

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84266: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:28:23 PM

I guess it wasn't cringy there because instead of being JRPG moral lingo about the values of mortals & shit it was just one man achieving righteous vengeance against two murderers & the dialogue was basically "You fucking monsters, die!"

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84267: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:44:09 PM

I dunno what you mean, I loved how Trunks specifically didn't engage with Zamasu in his philosophical rants. His big final line basically translates to: "mortal or god, it doesn't matter, you're a selfish asshole, now die!"

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#84268: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:26:02 PM

In order to beat a JRPG villain, you must become a JRPG protagonist.

This song needs more love.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84269: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:27:20 PM

But is it worth it?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84270: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:33:51 PM

Well considering what happened afterwards, no it wasn't.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84271: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:36:36 PM

Although Trunks was practically a jrpg character lost in the wrong genre

Sword and such, time travel

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84272: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:41:29 PM

Its like none of you ever played Dragon Quest....

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#84273: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:45:25 PM

I never have. No interest in that franchise.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#84274: Jun 3rd 2018 at 2:48:20 PM

He's basically non-silent Crono.

This song needs more love.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84275: Jun 3rd 2018 at 4:52:45 PM

I played it

Got very confused why softcore sexual activity was a valid combat maneveur

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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