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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84226: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:10:26 PM

People forget that Goku is the greatest warrior ever.

Not just strongest, greatest which encompasses a lot more qualities than just strength.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#84227: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:13:09 PM

On the other hand, it took until Wrath of the Dragon for Goku to use any chi-based skills that he didn't learn from someone else. So, he's not less skilled, just less creative.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84228: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:13:16 PM

It's easy to think Goku isn't super skillful when he relies on "shoot big laser" so much, but there are definitely some fights in the Tournament of Power where he shows off how smart he can fight.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84229: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:15:07 PM

Looking back, I liked many of Super's changes to the movies, such as Beerus using an unnamed Hakai to destroy Goku's Kamehameha, setting it up as something that destroyer gods can do that sets them apart from everyone else.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84230: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:15:23 PM

I mean everyone uses a big laser so that's not really the fault of Goku but due to how simplistic the attacks of DB can be.

[up][up][up] He truly is a move-thief.

edited 2nd Jun '18 7:16:26 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84231: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:21:54 PM

Indeed. Goku is very much more skilled than everyone.

Except when it comes to making up his own techniques.

Then again, the stuff he steals is far more effective than what everyone else comes up with, so it balances out.

Which is kinda my point: he tends to not only learn others techniques, but do them better and even make them better, so it's odd that he's never tried to improve the Spirit Bomb in anyway.

Well, I say that but we know the reason is because Toriyama didn't think of it...and then didn't need too after Super Saiyan took the field.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84232: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:25:42 PM

I mean, technically he did. The Spirit Bomb that Kaio taught him involved absorbing it into his body and shooting it out of his hand, which had downsides in that if it was interrupted, the energy would partially dissipate and the blast itself was pretty small and easily dodgeable. The version he did from Namek onwards involved gathering the energy into a giant ball above his head, which eliminated both of those issues. Goku can get hit or dodge attacks and go right back to charging it without losing power, and it's so big that it's hard to dodge.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84233: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:26:59 PM

Was that a deliberate sign that he altered how the technique was formed?

I just thought Toriyama decided to change how it was done because he felt like it.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84234: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:28:00 PM

You can't improve the spirit bomb...its effectiveness is flawed from its initiative.

Nothing can change that.

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DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#84235: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:34:10 PM

If it were possible to charge up really quickly, it might be more effective.

The charge time is its real problem. Well, that and people always overestimate how powerful it is (except for Kid Buu, the one time it actually worked).

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84236: Jun 2nd 2018 at 7:37:36 PM

It's always just barely not enough, Goku should really ere on the side of caution and charge it maybe a minute longer than he thinks he needs to.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84237: Jun 2nd 2018 at 8:02:54 PM

With Vegeta it lost a lot of energy before Goku could use it. With Frieza, the problem was that Frieza was just unkillable to anything except a Super Saiyan...and the Androids....and Dabura...and Buu...

...well you get my point.

As for Buu, Goku using energy from people seemed to improve the quality greatly.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84238: Jun 2nd 2018 at 8:11:25 PM

I choose to believe there was also some type advantage going in there

There's no precedent for it but nevertheless you cannot stop this unsubstantiated theory train

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84239: Jun 2nd 2018 at 8:15:06 PM

I can buy that.

Then again, when he created the Spirit bomb on namek he didn't have much to work with, which might have been another reason why it completely failed to hurt Frieza beyond the latter just being stupid strong.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#84240: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:21:37 PM

Goku pulled energy not just from Namek but from all fo the nearby stars and planets for that Spirit Bomb. He had a lot to work with which is why it was so massive.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84241: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:27:05 PM

...and yet it did nothing.

In contrast, the energy of everyone on earth killed Buu.

It looks like the energy of sentient beings trumps that of plants, animals, and stars. Once again, that feels like something that could be expanded on.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#84242: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:34:31 PM

Honestly, I'm 90% certain that most of the power for the final Spirit Bomb came from Gohan with the other major characters providing a lot and then the rest of the Earth providing, like, pennies.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84243: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:38:29 PM

That's a little mean. I do admit that Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and the other Z warriors probably had a huge effect on the quality. Just them and the few friends Goku had across the planet made a pretty big bomb. Then everyone else joined in and it was ridiculous.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84244: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:47:17 PM

Well, it does get noticeably bigger at three points. First when everyone who knows Vegeta donates their energy, and Goku specifically mentions Gohan. Second when everyone who knows Goku donates, so everyone in Dragon Ball, and it gets a bit bigger. Third when Mr. Satan convinces everyone on Earth to give their energy, which is when it gets bigger and finishes.

It makes sense even factoring in Power Levels. Assuming Gohan at this point is 2-3 times SS3 Goku's level, who's probably around 32 billion (assuming his base is 80 million so as to be weaker than Freeza in Battle of Gods), so Gohan having a Power Level of around 70 billion seems to make sense. Let's also say that the population of Earth is the same as here, 7 billion. Factoring in that the average Power Level is 5, the Earth's total Power Level is around 35 billion, easily half of what Gohan's is. The Earth's contribution would not be insignificant, though it being as big as it appeared seems a bit hyperbolic.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84245: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:49:16 PM

According to the episode I just watched on Toonami, King Yemma and the others in Otherworld also donated their energy.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84246: Jun 2nd 2018 at 9:58:05 PM

Let's say it breaks down like this:

Gohan: literally 50% of the ball by himself.

The other main characters: 9%

Earth: 35%, factoring in the energy taken from non-Human sources, like the plants and animals.

Otherworld: like 1%, since it was probably just Yemma and Yemma's staff, and Yemma's weaker than North Kaio.

edited 2nd Jun '18 9:59:59 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#84247: Jun 2nd 2018 at 11:21:03 PM

You have to also account for Yamcha's contribution of -1% getting balanced out.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84248: Jun 3rd 2018 at 1:13:34 AM

To be fair, only because Toriyama insists on having it fail.

No, in-universe it just isn't enough. There's no contrived reason for it to fail, the enemies have just been way stronger than Goku. Vegeta DID come up with a way to make it better, but it required Mr Satan's coercion to actually be good. Hell, Goku even questions Vegeta's suggestion of using it, showing that its' in-universe performance is reflected in its reputation.

Even though it's not dependent on the user's base strength, it's still dependent on your opponents' strength which meant that it got power crept fairly logically. And the charge time and vulnerability of the user means that it was never a great technique, only a last resort.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84249: Jun 3rd 2018 at 3:02:37 AM

It's definitely not the type of move to use when you're 1 v 1.

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#84250: Jun 3rd 2018 at 4:08:39 AM

Doesn't the Spirit Bomb work on evil beings?

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