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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84176: May 30th 2018 at 2:41:08 PM

[up]

Yeah, but then the entire Tournament would just be Universe 7 roflstomping everyone because they have higher Power Levels (with the exception of Invisible dude and tiny bug man, who did prove to be a bit of trouble in both versions...though more so in the manga).

The other universes have to have guys at that level.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84177: May 30th 2018 at 2:42:45 PM

No, they don't. There have to be some fighters who can be a threat, universe 7 is only 1 universe so it doesn't take much.

You just don't need every universe to individially be a threat to u 7.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#84178: May 30th 2018 at 2:48:11 PM

I mean, some might say that not having each universe come off as a threat makes things less entertaining. But since a large part of the complaints against the anime's take was how a lot of things done to produce tension made no sense, I guess there's no easy answer there.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84179: May 30th 2018 at 2:51:40 PM

[up][up]

Ok, fair enough. though technically every universe is a threat to universe 7 in that if they win, 7 gets erased.

That being said, considering how Power works in DB, it's hard to be a threat if you aren't as powerful or more powerful than the other guy (even with special abilities, which have varying degrees of effectiveness), so if they don't have some guys who are god level, how do they show they aren't totally fodder?

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84180: May 30th 2018 at 2:52:28 PM

Honestly a battle royale is just a bad fit for Dragonball.

In a series where power is more like rock-paper-scissors it might be a good fit. But in Dragonball power is transitive (so A>B and B>C = A>C) and also tends towards obsolescence of weaker powers, so a Battle Royale logically should just be a glorified "who is the strongest single person" contest.

But power levels were seesawing so much to try and maintain tension that we ended up with a really weird situation at the end. A lot of the inconsistencies came from the tournament structure and Dragonball's established power dynamics interfering.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84181: May 30th 2018 at 2:52:47 PM

Take out the weaklings.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84182: May 30th 2018 at 2:55:07 PM

Toyotarou is doing that, but it's clear he's better at sticking to how power works in Dragonball than Toei, who try to fudge things a little.

Of course, this creates the issue of why there are weaklings at all (though it's comparative; they are only weak compared to the heroes, who're the strongest beings of their races and in their entire universe).

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84183: May 30th 2018 at 2:57:22 PM

The other problem is that right from the beginning it was made clear that there was only one real threat to Universe 7 and that was Jiren and his buddies.

If there had been two or three really major universes and everyone else got cleared off fast that would be one thing. But right from the start they're going "all this is a waste of time, Jiren's the one to be worried about".

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84184: May 30th 2018 at 2:58:53 PM

It's sad when logically this entire tournament should have went like this.

"Jiren points at U10. BLAM, there all eliminated."

"Jiren breathes......... there are now only 5 people left in the entire tournament."

edited 30th May '18 2:59:31 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84185: May 30th 2018 at 4:30:21 PM

Having one big dude that's scarier than all the other dudes works better in a more traditional 1v1 tournament setup since that makes them the monster at the end of the book

Stamina also could be more of a thing

I remember parts of YYH Dark Tournament dealt with stamina and the characters just wear down from fight after fight

Youd think stamina would be more of a thing in a battle royals but I guess not

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#84186: May 30th 2018 at 4:42:08 PM

Well, they kept saying it was a problem, but didn't really show it very well.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#84187: May 30th 2018 at 5:32:15 PM

But in YYH they were able to do that via wounds that persisted over time, like how Hiei has his arm crippled for most of the tournament.

I guess they could do that in this... but not for every character (such as Piccolo).

edited 30th May '18 5:32:50 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#84188: May 30th 2018 at 6:25:50 PM

I guess he could look beat up in different ways

Like how he got his shit kicked and looked all manner of bedraggled by the end of his time on Namek

edited 30th May '18 6:26:04 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84189: May 30th 2018 at 6:44:39 PM

Why would Kaioshin even be surprised by the power of the early Boo arc Saiyans (Super Saiyan 1 and 2) if he was aware of the other universes who have mortals are way more powerful than that?

Because Supreme Kai is a scrub. We know this.

edited 30th May '18 6:56:45 PM by Moth13

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84190: May 30th 2018 at 7:02:26 PM

Pretty much. He was never properly trained or informed of anything in his universe (remember, not his fault, despite people shitting on him) so he had no idea it was possible.

Not that anyone seems to care.

One Strip! One Strip!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#84191: May 30th 2018 at 7:13:26 PM

Catching up on the manga. Ribrianne is as unpleasant as ever, but the manga version has a crush on Krillin because of his lack of a nose? [lol]

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84192: May 30th 2018 at 7:47:58 PM

Retconning the casts' most powerful showings into them being weaklings seems like a pretty shitty move for the sake of some new characters.

Anyway, having Jiren and the boyz being the only God-level threat doesn't make everyone pointless. It just means the point is something other than provinding a threat to God tier opponents. Threats to the weaker u 7 characters, enemies to springboard the development of the focus characters, threats to stamina.

The stamina issue was handled poorly by the anime but could have easily worked. Jiren et al know about Goku's strength before the tournament, and Goku knows Toppo's strength and that Juren is even more powerful. Until they have their confrontation, they aren't going to use their stamina one-shotting weaklings because once they do, the other side can step in and be rid of them. If they decide to immediately fight each other, the winner might lose so much stamina that the remaining universes ARE a threat.

They'd just need to take stamina seriously (no running out of stamina multiple times) and make sure the characters conserve stamina in ways that make sense (not using transformations in ways that make no sense, like Goku whipping out Blue against fodder).

It'd essentially be a cold war against Universe 11, which helds build up the suspense to that fight. Even characters without stamina-intensive transformations still have reason to play it safe in that kind of conflict.

I don't think a 1 v 1 tournament works better because it loses the whole team/universe aspect and you'd need to gut so many characters that it'd be like 2-3 fighters from each universe at best. Then 90% of the screentike is spent on 1 v 1s against new characters with no investment, and we have so few u 7 characters involved it's hard to care.

A team bracket tournament like YYH is an idea I had before the tournament started, but I don't think that's better either. For one there is too much of a variance in battle powers to really justify the teams that way, the breaks between rounds would make stamina less believably an issue and we've still got the issue of watching a lot of fights with undeveloped characters. On top of that I don't think the fights would be any more entertaining because of the sheer power disparity in u 7's team.

Also, the TOP does have more than just Jiren et al as threats. I can only go off the anime at this point but we had Hit, Kafla, the combined robot, Aniraza, and arguably the Namekians and Obuni (Gohan's power is hard to pin down due to inconsistency). I wouldn't even be surprised if I've forgotten some more powerful fighters than those.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#84193: May 30th 2018 at 8:44:06 PM

I'm reminded of my idea to make the arena a literal planet, since I think most of these issues would be solved or at least wouldn't stick out like sore thumbs that way.

vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#84194: May 30th 2018 at 9:21:53 PM

Watching the build up to the Tournament of Power, it’s interesting to me to see how the other universes cope with and plan for it

And Goku you are a dick. Naturally they’d freak out but yeah, way to shit on your friends

Buu is a waste of space

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#84195: May 30th 2018 at 11:18:30 PM

He made space, to be exact...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#84196: May 31st 2018 at 3:20:18 AM

@Saiga

I suppose you are right. It is just that it is inevitable that some of the characters will not have any focus and that they have figure out some way to make the fighter to waste stamina.

"Mai waifu."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84197: May 31st 2018 at 5:22:03 AM

As the Tournament of Power goes in the anime, these are the notably strong fighters from each universe:

U2: Ribrianne had her super forms, though how strong 18 is is nebulous, so it's hard to judge how strong she is. The Pretty Black Hole was a legendary technique that required SSB to break. Harmila had super strong ki blasts, strong enough to pin down Gohan and Piccolo.

U3: Maji-Kayo effortlessly restrained Dyspo and prompted Jiren to step up to save him. Koicharator was as strong as SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta combined. Anilaza was slightly stronger than SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, 17, Gohan, and Golden Freeza combined.

U4: Monna was stronger than SS 1 Cabba, I guess? Ganos was going to be their ace, since his strength constantly grows over time, but Roshi knocked him out before he could be a problem for everyone else. Damon was strong enough to knock out Piccolo.

U6: Hit, duh. Kafla, duh. Kale was slightly weaker than SSG Goku. Saonel and Pirina working together held the advantage over Gohan. Caulifla and Cabba were both able to use SS 2. Magetta is pretty tough, and Botamo's nigh-indestructible, as always.

U9: Bergamo could absorb enough damage from Goku to grow almost as strong as SSB Goku.

U10: Obuni was massively weaker than Gohan at full power, but he put up a fight with his illusions.

U11: Jiren, duh. Toppo, duh. Dyspo, duh. Kahseral, maybe, he did fight 17 and Kale. Kunshi, maybe, he did help out against Goku and Hit.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#84198: May 31st 2018 at 3:39:09 PM

Skipped through most of the conversation: the way I could see the To P working, would be having a universe vs. universe bracket: It starts with a 10 vs 10 fight, and the universe who loses all of its fighters gets eliminated, while its opponent advances to the next round, but with a catch: eliminated fighters stay eliminated.

The issue would be making a bracket. Of course the final round would be 7 vs. 11, and 6 would make it to the semifinals, but other than that...

ZeroDozer Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!! from Santo André, SP, Brazil Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Incinerate! ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!
#84199: May 31st 2018 at 3:49:29 PM

This sounded infinitely better than the messy battle royale the tournament was.

Growing up, it's like a civil war, don't turn away, it's something you can't ignore...
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84200: May 31st 2018 at 4:02:40 PM

Anyone read Kengan Ashura?

Cause it is doing an epic tournament right now & the cool thing is that it gives absolute focus to each & every fight & character. Like the main character can be gone for 10 chapters at a time because at all the spotlight is on the current match. Its pretty incredible, a fight can go on for like 3 chapters, 5 chapters, 10 chapters, & with it shows both individuals fight-style, motive, backstory, & character development every time to the max.

Like the tournament officially started over 60 chapters ago & the first bracket is not even over yet. I shit you not, the tournament started at chapter 43 & to the currently translated chapter 108, were not even at the second round yet, just two more fights left out of a first bracket comprised of 16 total fights. Also from what I heard the series is already 200+ in Japan & it just now reached the finale fight of the tournament.

edited 31st May '18 4:04:41 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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