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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84076: May 24th 2018 at 12:28:39 AM

I'm just agreeing with the post above me, Toyotaro doesn't really have professional talent as an artist, and he shouldn't be drawing the Super manga. Give it to one of the other more talented mangaka who'd jump at the chance to do something like that, last I checked they had quite a few working in the Dragon Room just on stand-by.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84077: May 24th 2018 at 12:35:22 AM

The tracing doesn't effect the manga because it hasn't happened in the manga. This promo example is the only one we have that appears to be genuienly traced rather than closely copied.

The homage panels in the manga don't line up with the originals because they weren't directly traced.

galleyfox Since: Feb, 2018
#84078: May 24th 2018 at 5:22:19 AM

[up] I'm not trying to argue that Toyotaro is plagiarizing for his manga. What's more concerning is that tracing still plays a big part in his learning process; it's contributing to a lot of Toyotaro's bad habits in the manga and doing nothing to fix his weaknesses. He's learning the "How" but not the "Why" of a good piece of art.

Focusing on the Captain America piece. I think Toyotaro already had an idea of what he wanted for the cover, but because he legitimately struggles with perspective and scale, he needed a reference. He chose the Captain American drawing but failed to recognize the screwy anatomy and posture in that comic.

This process eventually circles back to the Dragon Ball Super manga. Without a strong foundation and knowledge of perspective, Toyotaro has become overly reliant on "flat" mid-distance panels and close-ups. He's learned to draw the characters and poses by tracing them, but he's never mastered anatomy drawing, so we see a lot of rubber poses in the manga. And so on...

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84079: May 24th 2018 at 5:38:41 AM

It's also a matter of framing and composition. In terms of choreography, Goku and Hit vs Jiren from the manga is basically the same as Goku and Vegeta vs Jiren from later in the anime, but the latter is framed much better, with more dynamic movements, motion, and camera-work that makes the second scene work while the first scene really doesn't.

While the anime does have its off moments, in the end, it's being made mostly by industry professionals with many years under their belt animating, many with years working on Dragon Ball in particular. To contrast, the manga is being drawn by one rank amateur who comparatively just started, so while it's much more consistent, it's also consistently bad to mediocre.

That said, Toyo can put out good work when he cares about what he's drawing, like at the end of the Future Trunks arc, but it's painfully obvious that he's phoning it in for this arc hard, he does not give a shit about putting in quality work, and it shows.

edited 24th May '18 5:41:59 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84080: May 24th 2018 at 7:16:10 AM

Fun thing I noticed when rewatching the Tournament of Power: when Rubalt is eliminated, he apologizes to Gowasu. Gowasu's response to cheer him up is to say, in English: "Come on, come on!" before switching back to Japanese to tell him that Obuni will win it for them.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84081: May 24th 2018 at 9:34:30 PM

Sorry for the triple post, but Anime Ajay did a stream talking about Toyotaro's tracing controversy. It's kind of a long video, so I'll summarize. Regardless of your thoughts on the Super manga, Toyotaro traced. He traced Captain America, then rotated the arm and hand in photoshop. This is undeniable, and it's not good for Toyotaro to do this and profit off of it. Toyotaro shouldn't be fired over this, it's not really that big of a deal in the end, but it is a bad thing he did. He should absolutely be fired if it comes to light that, like Yamamuro, he made a habit of stealing from other artist's works, but one incident isn't really a huge deal. Referencing, as many artists do, is not the same as tracing. Referencing is thinking something's cool and wanting to do something similar, tracing is thinking something's cool and stealing that thing.

edited 24th May '18 9:34:50 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#84082: May 25th 2018 at 5:06:45 PM

So here's a random thought:

who else do you think could have drank the Super Ultimate Water (the real one, not the fake stuff from when Goku first met Korin) and survived it?

If we take Krillin and his max powers post Namek into consideration, all the other characters problem still had a lot of untapped potential.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#84083: May 25th 2018 at 6:48:05 PM

Yeah, I don't see why that's supposed to be a big deal.

It's not that hard to see why some see it as a bid deal though. He's taking someone else and profiting from it.

It's not that different from why a student can get in trouble for copying someone else's work.

That old said, i don't think Toyotaro should lose his job or anything.

By the way, evidently a minority of Toyotaro's defenders are being rude to Dexter Soy, even though Soy wasn't the one who brought any of this up( it was a fan from Japan that noticed the similarities).

edited 25th May '18 6:58:31 PM by Cortez

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#84084: May 25th 2018 at 6:50:18 PM

I really wouldn't equate copying a pose, with copying someone else's work. If he's still drawing the characters, backgrounds, etc, and the only similar thing is certain framing, I'm not going to call that "stealing".

I'm not an artist, but that just sounds more like a compliment than anything else.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#84085: May 25th 2018 at 6:51:51 PM

IIRC in Japan copying something is a compliment, so this might be a Values Dissonance thing.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#84086: May 25th 2018 at 6:52:16 PM

[up]×2 A lot of artist seem to disagree going to the reaction to all this.

[up]

There were Japanese fans who were giving Toyotaro flack for the tracing, so i'm not sure how true that is.

who else do you think could have drank the Super Ultimate Water (the real one, not the fake stuff from when Goku first met Korin) and survived it?

I don't know, i'm not sure any human could have survived it. I get the impression that he survived because he was really a Saiyan.

The only time i can see them surviving is when they are at the point where they don't need it anymore.

edited 25th May '18 7:01:49 PM by Cortez

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#84087: May 25th 2018 at 7:00:06 PM

There were Japanese fans were giving Toyotaro flack for the tracing, so i'm not sure how true that is.

Yeah that goes against what I've heard as well.

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#84088: May 25th 2018 at 8:52:57 PM

[up]x4. Tracing is copying someone's work. Now using references and stuff yeah that is fine and I really don't think this is the end of the world over a promotional image, but by definition he copied someone else's work.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84089: May 25th 2018 at 9:12:22 PM

Toyotaro didn't just reference a pose. He literally traced the lines themselves. That's stealing art, and it's wrong. He 100% did that, there's no valid argument to be had that he didn't.

edited 25th May '18 9:13:10 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84090: May 26th 2018 at 3:21:42 AM

Idle thought: remember the skin-tight Ki barrier Gohan developed to fight Lavanda without getting poisoned? Vegeta should've used that to break through Toppo's Hakai aura.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84091: May 26th 2018 at 3:48:59 AM

That logically would have just been Hakai'd.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84092: May 26th 2018 at 4:56:06 AM

Yeah, but Toppo's Hakai aura would logically also be used up in that area to Hakai the barrier. The two auras would cancel each other out. Same thing that happened when Vegeta's Final Explosion was enveloped by and disintegrated the giant Hakai ball, the amount of energy was too much to destroy.

It uses up Hakai energy to destroy stuff, and a strong enough skin-tight barrier would logically use up the Hakai aura in the same location, leaving nothing in-between Vegeta's fist and Toppo's face.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84093: May 26th 2018 at 5:18:30 AM

If that's the case all Vegeta needs to do is charge his fists with ki and the Hakai energy is stupidly useless.

I doubted the technique was that easily thwarted.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#84094: May 26th 2018 at 5:21:28 AM

I thought Hakai is supposed to destroy everything like that little pebble of Hakai did to Frieza's Death Ball.

If it doesn't destroy then it's not Hakai really.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#84095: May 26th 2018 at 5:30:07 AM

The Hakai energy was completely pointless. It's not like it was overcome by strategy or a hype moment like Goku going SSBKK, just fighting exactly the same, Vegeta doing a pride speech and trying to mooch off a nostalgic moment without understanding the context of that scene.

Edit: Now that I'm not as pissed off from being reminded of that episode, I can actually see PMC idea working, as long as its established that Vegeta is burning through a lot of Ki while doing the barrier and it sometimes wears off, thus giving the fight actual tension.

edited 26th May '18 5:57:45 AM by Ikedatakeshi

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84096: May 26th 2018 at 6:37:42 AM

My interpretation of Hakai is that it is a completely separate type of energy. It is capable of completely destroying matter or energy, but just like any energy, it has limits. You need a certain amount of Hakai energy to destroy a certain amount of energy or matter, and if you don't have enough, it just destroys what it can and dissipates, leaves the rest undamaged. A tiny speck of Hakai is enough to destroy 4th Form Freeza's Death Ball, but a gigantic sphere of Hakai isn't enough to completely destroy SSBE Vegeta's Final Explosion.

If you fire a strong enough beam at God Toppo, the first half or so of the beam will be destroyed by the Hakai aura, but the rest will hit Toppo because destroying that first half of the beam drained his Hakai aura and used it up.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84097: May 26th 2018 at 12:53:00 PM

The actual explanation is that "HOLY CRAP, LOOK HOW KELW DAT IS, IT'S SO KEWL" like everything else in Super.

Seriously, we're not given any information on how Hakai energy actually works, so any guess is as good as any other.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#84098: May 26th 2018 at 1:09:28 PM

We weren't even told how God ki really works, or the difference with mortal ki really. Hakai never had a chance.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#84099: May 26th 2018 at 1:13:56 PM

I repeat: when I'm throwing out ideas to improve Dragon Ball, I am using this thread as a sounding board because I'm most likely thinking about implementing these ideas in my plans for future movies.

That said, it'd be better if Sirloin, Rabanra, and Zarbuto's love transformations were unique and personalized instead of just being copies of the Kamikaze Fireballs, right?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#84100: May 26th 2018 at 1:26:06 PM

I mean, there's nothing with speculating...but that usually needs some information from the actual source to speculate on. Super provides such little substance that trying to speculate may as well just be a headcanon lol.

But if you're gonna try to explain Hakai energy, I think it might be beneficial to establish what the fuck is God Ki and how does it differ from Mortal Ki.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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