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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83976: May 21st 2018 at 12:31:49 PM

Spirit Sword was cool.

I loved it when it first happened, though mostly because even if it was a massive Ass Pull, Trunk got to actually save his world... so you can imagine how I felt about that damned ending.

But yeah, you can't just have experience, you can't just have skill, and you can't just have power, you need all of them. Dragon Ball is a world of Lightning Bruisers where how meaningless or meaningful your muscles are is entirely dependent on how much Ki you have, and only once you have that does any type of skill or experience matter. It often doesn't feel that way because of the race for new and more powerful transformations etc, but look at Gohan vs Dabura: the former should have ended the fight in second, but because of how unskilled he'd become, he couldn't. That being said, his lack of skill had little affect on how much more powerful he was than Dabura, who couldn't even hurt him at all.

...shit, forgot what else I was going to say. Oh well, it's just gonna be the same old shit anyway.

Wait. I got it back. Ok, so I also liked seeing Roshi in action again, but it's clear that his in the tournament isn't about any form of logic. He's there because Toriyama wanted him there, and he's powered up to justify his being there. I think that when he wants a character involved, he'll just come up with something, regardless of how much sense it does or doesn't make. It's as simple as that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83977: May 21st 2018 at 12:40:08 PM

Look, at the end of the day I was just happy to see serious Roshi one more time, since in Z and GT we only ever got dirty old man Roshi.

And the guys he beat weren't guy like Jiren, Toppo or Hit, so it didn't bother me.

Spirit Sword was cool.

I loved it when it first happened, though mostly because even if it was a massive Ass Pull, Trunk got to actually save his world... so you can imagine how I felt about that damned ending.

Yeah, that's how i feel about that too.

edited 21st May '18 12:42:52 PM by Cortez

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83978: May 21st 2018 at 12:43:01 PM

It does help that we have a very poor idea of how strong most of the participants are that Roshi taking out, for example, Genos, isn't stupid.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83979: May 21st 2018 at 12:46:12 PM

And before that episode, his eliminations were part of him teaming up with the others.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83980: May 21st 2018 at 1:29:37 PM

Roshi being used at all should indicate that the plot would bend over backwards to include him, so I'm not surprised at the pandering.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#83981: May 21st 2018 at 2:21:03 PM

The annual Dragon Ball Heroes character poll has started!

Vote for your favorite characters, or better yet, vote for characters that no one else will! Throw off Dimps and Yamamuro with your choices.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83982: May 21st 2018 at 2:21:26 PM

Though it still would have been nice if 18 got some eliminations before she went. That's a thing about the anime. Everyone got to take out someone and somewhat prove their worth, whereas this one has some of them getting taken out without making any difference. It's a little irking.

You know 18 got two eliminations in the first chapter of the tournament, right? Jimeze and Prum. Some people thought Jimeze teleported but this chapter confirmed he is out.

The thing about the anime is that everyone got eliminations, which makes it unimpressive. If Roshi and Tenshinhan can get multiple eliminations, it becomes meaningless for better fighters.


Anyway, I didn't mention Roshi to suggest his mere presence is pandering. To an extent, it is, because his inclusion makes zero sense and is inconsistent with the original. But the fact that he is still in, and his comments to Goku make me expect that he will get a pandering moment just like he did in the anime.

As for experience, that doesn't count for shit. It shouldn't count for shit. Experience does not bridge the kind of gaps we are playing with.

Roshi got surpassed by young teen Goku and pre-Saiyan arc humans. That is how irrelevant he is. Is anyone in this tournament below young teen Goku? Acting like his experience would matter now is horseshit.

Also, really, what experience does Roshi have? He may be old, but he's been earthbound his entire life and didn't even deal with the really weird shit that has visited Earth. He was retired when the characters met him, and lacks the ability to fly or any of the high level techniques introduced as the series progressed.

Acting like he should be some bastion of unending wisdom does not make sense. Yes, experience is an asset, which is why there was that whole thing of him imparting what he knew onto his students. Acting like he would always have more wisdom than him is beyond ridicullous, and it flies in the face of his entire character arc which was about being surpassed - not just in power, but as a teacher as well. If he still had so much more valuable knowledge, he never would have told his students that they had grown beyond his teachings.

People want Roshi to remain this wise master who is ahead of the cast, but that doesn't make any sense at all and never worked with the story.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83983: May 21st 2018 at 2:28:43 PM

You know 18 got two eliminations in the first chapter of the tournament, right? Jimeze and Prum. Some people thought Jimeze teleported but this chapter confirmed he is out.

Did she? I guess I forgot. Ok then, good on her.

People want Roshi to remain this wise master who is ahead of the cast, but that doesn't make any sense at all and never worked with the story.

Maybe because without that status as the wise old master, that just leaves disgusting pervert. I'd rather have him as the wise master, but yeah, that's not his thing anymore...

I guess that's why we have Whis now.

edited 21st May '18 2:28:59 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83984: May 21st 2018 at 2:33:30 PM

[up]×2

So he should just be an old pervert all the time? That gets old fast.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83985: May 21st 2018 at 2:34:13 PM

He shouldn't be in the main cast anymore. They can't find things to do for the majority of them anyway.

He's retired. Yamcha's retired. Tien and Chaotzu should be retired. Heck, Piccolo should probably retire.

edited 21st May '18 2:35:01 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83986: May 21st 2018 at 2:35:52 PM

He's Krillin and Goku's mentor and father figure, he'll always be around.

Especially since they still continue to hang out at his house.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#83987: May 21st 2018 at 2:36:21 PM

I mean, they could try added new facets to the character. That could also be a thing.

But neither version of Super really seems interested in doing that with any of the characters.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#83988: May 21st 2018 at 2:39:07 PM

[up][up] That's not really a good excuse for trying to shoehorn him into places where he's not needed. Goku and Krillin surpassed him years ago, so still trying to play him as the wise master above them feels...jarring

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83989: May 21st 2018 at 2:39:19 PM

[up][up][up] They don't continue hanging out at his house, and they had no problem retiring Roshi in the manga. His perversion also stopped coming up well before he stopped appearing regularly.

It's possible for him to just be their old friend.

edited 21st May '18 2:39:33 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83990: May 21st 2018 at 2:40:17 PM

Latest chapter was weak, as usual. The only reason I'm reading is for some vain hope that the manga will expand upon the minor fighters who were ignored in the anime, but the only one they've done that for so far is Comfrey. I was hoping the manga would expand upon ignored fighters like Murichim, Jim, Jilcol, Jirasen, and Murisam, all from Universe 10, but I see now that those hopes were utterly useless.

Odds are that the remaining fighters who didn't do anything in the anime still won't do anything in the manga, either. Manga's still a complete and total waste of time.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83991: May 21st 2018 at 2:41:25 PM

[up]x3

That's not how master/apprentice relationships work. Surpassing him doesn't mean that they stop respecting him or going to him for advice.

edited 21st May '18 2:42:34 PM by Cortez

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83992: May 21st 2018 at 2:42:34 PM

Yeah, Roshi went out with dignity.

I know why they brought him back, because of cheap humour and because he's got some neat attacks.

But he could teach those neat attacks to other people. Have Goten and Trunks, have one learn from Tien and be all serious and one learn from Roshi and be all kooky.

[up] That's a support role though. In terms of battles he's passed the torch.

edited 21st May '18 2:43:02 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83993: May 21st 2018 at 2:43:38 PM

They don't continue hanging out at his house, and they had no problem retiring Roshi in the manga. His perversion also stopped coming up well before he stopped appearing regularly.

Wait. The continued perversion is only a thing in the anime? I never knew.

I agree that he's just their buddy now. And yeah, Roshi should bow out. I mean, he got to win one last tournament, can says he's beaten Goku in a fair one on one fight (and how many can say that? There's him, Tao, King Piccolo, and I guess Cell) and is the reason for Goku's eternal quest of self improvement.

Try using some of the newer characters you have Toriyama. Stop putting Buu to sleep and start putting him to work. Or at the very least, if you're going to keep using old characters, find real roles for them beyond they get beaten quickly to establish the threat or for the sake of dumb jokes.

[up]Edit: That's another thing. Why aren't the old times teaching the younger guys some of their techniques. I bet Gotenks could get some good work out of Instant Transmission. And the Solar Flare should be a pre-requisite technique too.

edited 21st May '18 2:45:31 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83994: May 21st 2018 at 2:43:47 PM

[up]x2 Goten and Trunks aren't great individually and they're a giant Screw up as Gontenks.

Then has his own techniques.

And he's still a martial artist, he even said that Goku and Krillin inspired him to fight againto surpass his own limitations.

edited 21st May '18 2:45:54 PM by Cortez

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#83995: May 21st 2018 at 2:44:18 PM

An entirely fictitious concept can be used however the writer wants. You don't need to have a character go back to their old mentor for advice all the time, or ever.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83996: May 21st 2018 at 2:44:48 PM

This would be a chance to make them interesting individually.

They need to start moving in new characters.

I'm not arguing that they didn't suck originally, but this could be a chance to fix that, not wallow in nostalgia.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#83997: May 21st 2018 at 2:47:20 PM

[up]x2

Again, he's basically their father and Krillin lived with him up until the Buu Saga.

[down]I dunno, he's certainly more reliable than Buu tends to be.

edited 21st May '18 2:51:20 PM by Cortez

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83998: May 21st 2018 at 2:48:23 PM

We're not saying he needs to disappear.

Just that he shouldn't take part in main battles. Certainly not above Yamcha or Buu.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#83999: May 21st 2018 at 2:48:26 PM

Yeah, arguing "Goten and Trunks suck, so they should never try and improve them" has never made sense.

They're young, and still have room to grow. If they're going to keep the franchise going maybe actually have them grow, instead of rehashing the same things repeatedly with characters who have all basically fully developed at this point.

edited 21st May '18 2:48:56 PM by LSBK

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#84000: May 21st 2018 at 2:50:00 PM

But they haven't grown as fighters and when we meet their older versions they have lost all interest in fighting.


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