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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#83501: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:26:56 AM

Pride that only belongs to him.

Only fair that he eventually gets the back breaker from Cell.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83502: Apr 26th 2018 at 5:11:21 AM

Goku being absent for most of Namek is the arc's biggest weakness but there's also almost no way around it without completely changing the arc.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83503: Apr 26th 2018 at 5:15:02 AM

I can't think of any single part of the Namek arc that would be improved by Goku's presence.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#83504: Apr 26th 2018 at 5:40:50 AM

He's kinda bland when he shows up...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83505: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:06:23 AM

[up][up] It's more that Goku having an actual emotional connection to the things that are going on would improve the arc as a whole.

The problem is actually that the arc is being hampered by the power system - Goku's presence would mean that Krillin and Gohan don't feel so outmanned and that means that the stellar first half's sense of danger is undermined.

He should definitely be present for more of the Freeza battle than he was.

edited 26th Apr '18 6:06:52 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83506: Apr 26th 2018 at 6:28:35 AM

I don't see that being true at all. Especially when it's Goku, he's not big on emotional connections and he got enough of that from Vegeta and Kuririn's deaths.

Having him be present earlier wouldn't make his connection any stronger. That's not like his character.

And as pointed out, having him around would actually work against the theme we got. It's not just entirely on power (as Goku would be just as powerless without his gravity training) but Goku's demeanor and attitude that wouldn't fit the tone we got. Having Kuririn and Gohan forced to go without his support sells the idea that they're in danger much better.

I wouldn't toss out that concept - which we don't get in the rest of the series - just to have Goku around. So no, I don't consider his lack of presence a flaw at all, but a strength.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#83507: Apr 26th 2018 at 8:14:04 AM

The Tournament of Power in 48 minutes,

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#83508: Apr 26th 2018 at 8:18:38 AM

Neat.

And Karrot was there from the start, so the arcs better...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83509: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:09:17 AM

Withholding Goku is like Toriyama's favorite narrative tool

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83510: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:12:04 AM

He definitely enjoys it a little too much.

His second narrative tool is having everyone else unable to do anything, even beating a lot of the scrubs.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83511: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:13:30 AM

It's in every arc of DBZ and at least the Piccolo arc in DB

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83512: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:16:08 AM

Hell, It's kinda in the earlier arcs of DB too.

Krillin can't so much as touch General Blue, and Goku defeats the army on his own before the Calvary can even try and do anything.

Tien is utterly helpless against Drum until Goku kicks his face with one hit.

I've said before that Toriyama always used the other fighters (particularly the humans) as stepping stones and measuring sticks to show Goku's power.

edited 26th Apr '18 9:16:22 AM by HandsomeRob

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83513: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:20:15 AM

Which can get boring and predictable since Goku is an extremely flat character

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#83514: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:23:58 AM

i completely disagree

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83515: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:24:25 AM

That's fine

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83516: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:24:48 AM

Ironically, I think the problem is that he manages to use Goku too much to let the others breathe but not enough that Goku can connect with what's going on.

Like, as Rob showed, it's rare for anyone else to accomplish anything. But they're also usually the guys witnessing everything. Goku met Cell for about five seconds to rescue Tien and Piccolo before the final battle, for instance. It's not just Freeza that he barely gets time to know.

If Goku was used more then he would fit more naturally into arcs. If the other characters could win a battle now and then it would feel more like an ensemble cast. But with the character moments reserved for the peons and the major battles reserved for Goku (broadly speaking) you end up with the worst of both worlds.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83517: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:26:30 AM

I recall Masako saying in one of videos that apparently, Toriyama didn't want Goku to change or grow all that much.

Not sure if that's 100% accurate though. Even Masako has his misconceptions. Then again, Toriyama is currently rebelling against any portrayal of Goku that isn't man child that only cares about fighting so who knows.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83518: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:28:29 AM

The attempt to give Freeza a link to Goku via Bardock was funny

"I killed your dad!"

"I have one of those?"

Is how the conversation would have gone

edited 26th Apr '18 9:28:51 AM by Bocaj

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83519: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:33:10 AM

Well, I mean, I also kinda agree with Mistare that the lack of connection between Goku and Frieza makes for an interesting start to the battle, with them mostly taking each other's measure and actually screwing around, which you don't really see in such an important battle.

Plus, it is true that heroes and villains don't always need to have a super strong connection of some sort.

Still, Toriyama could have tried to change up his formula a little more. I think when a writer starts falling into a pattern, they have to start subverting themselves. What we got worked (or we all wouldn't be here) but it'd been nice if he was willing to try and change things up a bit.

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83520: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:33:16 AM

To quote Mistare Fusion: "Freeza and Goku have had so little interaction that Toriyama literally couldn't keep it straight whether Freeza even knew if Goku exists!"

But honest Toriyama should have kept it to one out of battle section in the Namek arc, rather than have Goku arrive, whip the Ginyus and then get injured again.

edited 26th Apr '18 9:34:27 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83521: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:35:35 AM

Did Goku get a zenkai boost from heart disease?

It doesn't really matter with how the power levels were in that arc but I'd find it amusing

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83522: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:36:43 AM

Zenkai boosts stop mattering after Namek until Cell needed a bullshit power boost. Then they don't matter ever after.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83523: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:38:34 AM

I still want to know

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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#83524: Apr 26th 2018 at 9:54:41 AM

I'm still particular to the fantheory that Zenkai and Super Saiyan are mutually exclusive. Despite it kinda being a Voodoo Shark.

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Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#83525: Apr 26th 2018 at 10:31:53 AM

I kinda figured it was a case of the boost from nearly getting killed was no longer large enough to matter in the later fights.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy

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