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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83351: Apr 21st 2018 at 3:35:30 PM

I just find it interesting how completely vague and nondescript Toriyama's notes apparently are.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83352: Apr 21st 2018 at 3:51:01 PM

Yeah. I'm baffled at how he apparently put not effort or detail into it.

I mean, when doing the manga, it made sense that he didn't plan things out too far ahead, but with this, he should have all the time in the world to think things out and figure out how he wants his characters to be (something that didn't happen with Jiren).

Yet he seems to be putting little effort into it (outside of the designs for the characters).

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83353: Apr 21st 2018 at 3:52:21 PM

Hasn't it been stated that he doesn't want to this anymore?

No wonder he's not really trying, he doesn't want to do it anymore.

edited 21st Apr '18 3:52:29 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83354: Apr 21st 2018 at 3:58:55 PM

Oh. That explains it.

Maybe it's a bad idea for him to even come back then? He only did it because Dragonball Evolution shit the pot so hard he felt he had to set things straight.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83355: Apr 21st 2018 at 3:59:23 PM

I really want the manga to be good, I was really looking forward to seeing how it would handle the events in the Tournament of Power differently than the anime, especially since I thought the first half of the tournament in the anime was kind of all over the place and too chaotic. Unfortunately, this was just a bad chapter. Combining Goku vs Jiren Round 1 with Hit vs Jiren is an interesting idea, but the execution was really boring and lackluster, and placing it so early in the tournament is the same problem I have with Kale's rampage in the anime.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83356: Apr 21st 2018 at 4:38:47 PM

That does sounds suspect; if Goku was already stronger than everybody in the Afterlife, he really shouldn't have been able to find a good training partner.

He doesn't need a good partner to be able to make gains, it just helps. We saw that Goku was training on his own anyway. He had seven years in Otherworld, that's pretty much the best solo training conditions he's had. In that time, his base form just barely surpassed Gohan's from seven years ago and he got Super Saiyan 2 and 3. The transformations were the real benefit, and it still took him years to get those.

Well the problem is Kid Buu turned out to be stronger than Super Buu according to Herms, so there goes that.

Please provide a source. Because all sources we currently have show Kid Boo being weaker than Super Boo, including the ones from Herms.

Per the manga, Goku says he's no match for 'Super Buu', but is confident he can fight 'Kid Boo' and does show that he can fight evenly with him, losing due to Super Saiyan 3 power drain. Against Super Buu, he says himself he'd just be killed.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

This is Herms' translation, taken from here.


Anyway, onto the current discussion.

As I've said before, for me, the anime's attempts to be 'hype' just fall flat. This is partly because of all the other issues that the anime has, that leave me feeling apathetic when the series tries to hit a high note, and partly because those aforementioned issues are still present when trying to go for hype. Especially if those hype moments come from ignoring things that shouldn't make sense, like Kuririn putting up a fight against Super Saiyan Goku. If they'll just disregard any internal logic to make a scene 'hype', what's the point? Anyone could do that.

Even when Super has an idea I find interesting or like, it's still executed pretty poorly. I can't think of any truly hype moments, and as I'm trying to think of things I like from the anime version, it always comes with '...well, except for that bit''.

The manga doesn't have moments that I'd consider hype either, but it does have moments are are really enjoyable and overall much better execution. When the manga has an idea I like, it usually also executes it well instead of dropping the ball. It's an enjoyable read, in contrast to the anime which is mostly flat with more unpleasant moments than enjoyable ones.

I find it interesting that the manga is having Hit fight Jiren so early. The time lag was neat and better explained than the anime's similar version, and I like that Jiren was baiting him to conserve energy and that Goku saw through it. The interaction it spawned between Goku and Jiren was nice. I'm surprised Hit did so well here, actually. It was already alluded to that he'd improved from the last tournament, but this gave him physical gains and a new technique. But I think the biggest difference with the anime version is that this feels a lot more believable for Hit to accomplish, which gives it a lot more weight. The anime established Jiren as being able to man-handle Kaio-ken x20 Blue Goku after establishing that Blue Goku and Jiren were now more-or-less even, which made Hit's performance against Jiren hard to swallow. And when that happens, it doesn't really matter how good they try to make him look, because it's not credible. It makes it feel shallow and empty.

I also liked the brief team up of Goku and Hit vs Jiren, that's neat. And the concern that Goku had when he saw Hit being pressured is nice. I dislike that Goku still isn't a team player, but it's interesting that they had a different reason for it this time: Goku already has an inkling about his potential for ultra instinct (without knowing what it is). This feels pretty similar to the Android arc, where both Goku and Vegeta started to feel their was something beyond Super Saiyan, and I'm interested to see if other hints will be dropped as the arc goes along.

Also, if this is meant to take the place of Goku and Jiren's first fight in the anime, then it ended without Goku being beaten to the point of having no stamina. That's definitely a good change given how back and forth the anime went on the issue with stamina. Here, Goku nearly lost without depleting his stamina, because he could have just been rung out. I like that detail because in the anime it too often felt like characters couldn't be ringed out until they were 100% defeated already.

I do miss that we don't get the first part of Hit vs Dyspo. That was a good way to start building up Dyspo's competence while also showing that Hit was still a big deal. Unfortunately, after the initial set up the fight was poorly executed and the resolution didn't make sense, so I was really hoping the manga would adapt that fight with better execution.

I also liked the detail the anime had about Hit keeping his teammates in the ring with his ability, that was nice.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83357: Apr 21st 2018 at 5:43:46 PM

Also, if this is meant to take the place of Goku and Jiren's first fight in the anime, then it ended without Goku being beaten to the point of having no stamina.

Gonna have to side with Saiga on this one. That stuff with the Stamina was really annoying.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83358: Apr 21st 2018 at 5:45:12 PM

Hit versus Dypso may lowkey be one of the best Super fights, and not putting it in the manga is a terrible idea.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#83359: Apr 21st 2018 at 5:56:46 PM

I think the thing was Kid Buu wasn’t that he was more powerful then Super Buu, it was that he was more dangerous. With Super Buu, you could at least somewhat reason with him, such as getting him to wait for Goten and Trunks to train. Kid Buu was just a pure force of nature that you couldn’t stop outside of overpowering him.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83360: Apr 21st 2018 at 5:56:55 PM

I think it's a real stretch to call it one of the best fights given that the solution doesn't match the problem. The thing about Hit's fakeouts shouldn't help anything because the issue was that Dyspo was fast enough to hit him before the time skip activated and too fast for Hit to react. So faking the activation wouldn't mean anything, he'd still get hit and knocked down because he can't deal with that. But suddenly he's able to deal with Dyspo's speed and react, it's pretty poorly written.

Then Hit just handles Dyspo so easily that Dyspo loses the credibility he had built up and needs a really redundant power-up to be seen as a threat again when he fights Boo and Gohan. The way the anime handled it, it's better off not to have it at all. It's just the premise could have been really good if executed competently.

[up] It's also pretty much his establishing character moment. With both Fat Boo and Evil Boo they appealed to their desire to fight in order to somewhat handle them, but Vegeta immediately tries to goad Pure Boo into fighting him and Pure Boo responds by just destroying the Earth anyway.

edited 21st Apr '18 5:58:41 PM by Saiga

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#83361: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:16:33 PM

There was a dub-only line in the original Funimation where Supreme Kai says Buu is "more powerful than ever" in reference to Kid Buu, so that probably bolstered the idea among fans that Kid Buu is stronger.

Haven't seen the Kai version of the dub that far.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#83362: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:23:15 PM

Not having Hit vs. Dypso means Hit doesn't get much buildup before he's eliminated though, which I feel makes his defeat a bit less dramatic. Having Hit beat Dypso created anticipation in how he stacked up to Jiren.

So not having it means you don't really get an idea on that; sure we know Jiren was stronger, but by which degree makes it a bit more ambiguous.

I mean, at the end of the day, its mostly about preference but I can't really say I enjoy reading the manga as much as I did watching the Anime, despite the numerous problems the latter has. Enjoyment is part of a series experience too and it's possible to enjoy a series greatly despite it's flaws.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#83363: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:26:05 PM

But we do know how strong is Jiren compared to Hit, stronger than Goku in ×20 Kaioken SSB, thus way ahead of Hit.

edited 21st Apr '18 6:26:23 PM by Ikedatakeshi

CountofBleck Starting to believe in himself from New Wirral (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Starting to believe in himself
#83364: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:26:55 PM

So just a random thought that flashed by my head today: would Jiren had been able to crush Merged Zamasu, even when he turned into a screensaver?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83365: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:27:28 PM

[up][up][up][up] The Japanese anime also a line about Pure Boo being strongest, but I'm not sure if we're thinking of the same line. There's a line from the manga that could potentially be translated as 'strongest' but the word could also mean difficult/dangerous which is what Herms, Viz and Steve Simmons all translated it as.

[up][up][up] This chapter also had Jiren pummel Goku, which is less ambiguous. In fact, given that that was established it makes Jiren beating Hit feel less like a feat of strength and more showing off that he was holding back and duping Hit.

And yes, I am aware that you can enjoy something despite its flaws. For me, it's about both the good and bad, and how they weigh up. The anime's bad just outweighs the good far too much for me to enjoy it, as much as I've tried.

edited 21st Apr '18 6:29:00 PM by Saiga

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#83366: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:28:39 PM

[up][up] His immortality says otherwise.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83367: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:29:59 PM

...That's a very interesting question.

I mean, I'd assume Jiren would have stomped even Merged Zamasu in battle, but I'm not sure if just being really strong would have let him stop someone who'd merged with the multiverse himself the way Zamasu did.

He'd have probably faired better against the manga's version of Infinite Zamasu, since there was actually something to punch.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83368: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:31:03 PM

It didn't seem like there was anyway to interact with wallpaper Zamasu, but and against the clone army Zamasu he'd just eventually wear himself out.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83369: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:34:23 PM

Jiren would not be able to beat Garlic Jr.

This song needs more love.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83370: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:35:24 PM

Not to mention how utterly boring the manga fight itself is. Easily half the chapter is just Goku and/or Hit punching and kicking Jiren while Jiren stands perfectly still and blocks. In the anime versions of those fights, Goku flew all around the arena with Jiren and Hit phased in and out all around him, getting knocked away every time he tried to hit Jiren. Speaking just in terms of choreography and action, the manga fight sucks.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83371: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:36:07 PM

Immortality is immortality & there is nothing to indicate that Jiren possesses anything to overcome it that Goku or Vegito didn't.

edited 21st Apr '18 6:38:54 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#83372: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:36:51 PM

One thing I will say to the manga's credit is that Jiren does at least try to eliminate Goku rather than not bother because reasons.

That said, him remembering Goku's name at the end of the chapter feels weird for something that was just set up. Save the acknowledgement for when Goku gets UI.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83373: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:42:57 PM

Especially since Goku literally did nothing in-between to earn that.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#83374: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:44:04 PM

That was weird, it's not like Goku had done anything noteworthy to be acknowledged by Jiren.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83375: Apr 21st 2018 at 6:46:54 PM

Jiren literally pointed out what Goku did. Saw through his holding back, unlike Hit.


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