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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#83226: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:17:46 PM

You guys are really bad at talking around spoilers.

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#83227: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:23:11 PM

[up]

Not like the manga is brought up more often than the usual discussion here.

I mean, it MIGHT just happen. Like Goku suddenly knowing hakai or Trunks being able to heal people.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83228: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:25:42 PM

@Rob Is that in ascending order?

I find most of those agreeable, except for number one (that would be awful the way Super is going) and for number two. I guess I should watch the video, I'm unclear on what he means by better villains - I think the antagonists have been decent enough, it's just Jiren that has been poorly handled.

Also not really sure what he wants Kaioshin to do. I think he should have stayed fused with Kibito so he'd still have his healing powers.

[up]Trunks' healing was built up to, and wasn't that huge a factor since it let him play support.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:26:54 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83229: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:29:31 PM

Omen and building up Ultra Instinct for an entire arc was one of the best things about it, and the manga removing it would just be a shame.

Also, "Mastered" Ultra Instinct still having drawbacks doesn't bother me because that's not the part Goku was mastering. Goku was mastering the "let your body think and react on its own" aspect, not the "use it whenever you want with no downsides" aspect. He was mastering the technique Ultra Instinct, not the form Ultra Instinct.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83230: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:32:12 PM

Eh the build-up & mastering wasn't very impressive.

All he did was drive himself to the brink of exhaustion but there was no deep analysis or introspection that made you really understand UI. Sure the actual showcases were visually cool but it didn't feel like he was learning anything.

Like Goku is supposed to be a martial arts master but he doesn't really feel like it most of the time.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:32:38 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#83231: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:33:40 PM

I'm confused, how does Mastered Ultra Instinct have worse drawbacks?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83232: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:34:56 PM

[up][up]Whis did a whole speech about Goku forgetting about his worries and hang-ups with the tournament and its consequences and just getting into fighting Jiren so much that it started to come naturally and instinctively to him. It's not a lot, but they did go into it.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:35:16 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#83233: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:35:03 PM

[up][up]

Rather than just the exhaustion aspect, Mastered apparently caused Goku to sperg out before he could finish Jiren because his body couldn't handle the strain.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:35:28 PM by MyssaRei

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83234: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:36:10 PM

Except that he lost to Jiren the first time because the form crapped out, and struggled because he couldn't access it at will.

At Kafla, the tension was in being able to beat her before the form crapped out. They noted he still couldn't access it at will after he won.

Then against Jiren... the form craps out and he can't access it at will. The lack of unconscious attacking didn't even come up in the first fight, and that ended up being the only flaw that was addressed over the much larger ones introduced. That's really bad build up.

The first snd second time we saw Omen, I was happy with the progress. But that did not match the final result at all, Toei built up to the wrong thing and it makes the situation worse because then the real UI just feels repetitive of the first fight.

[up]x4 It damages Goku's body in addition to crapping out unexpectedly.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:37:34 PM by Saiga

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83235: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:36:19 PM

Its weird it took so long for someone to learn to heal.

Dende is right there. Take an internship.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83236: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:37:27 PM

I don't want to hear Whis fucking narrating & expositioning everything.

I want to hear Goku's genuine honest thoughts about this shit. How does he feel, not hearing a possible sociopath blather on & on.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83237: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:38:34 PM

[up][up] He gets that for being a Namekian and having his power unlocked.

It's not like Piccolo could be taught to go Super Saiyan

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83238: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:39:18 PM

[up][up]Okay, but the whole point is that Goku wasn't thinking and worrying about what was happening to him. He was literally the only person who COULDN'T deliver that exposition.

edited 19th Apr '18 6:39:35 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83239: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:46:49 PM

The question is whether healing in that way is exclusive to namekians.

Regeneration the way they do certainly is. Rooted in their biology and whatnot. But healing the way Dende does seems more like a technique. And techniques can be learned. Often in dragon ball often just by watching them and trying once.

Buu has a kind of healing too and he's not a Namekian. Although he is a weird bubble gum man. And also a weird fat god that the bubble gum ate.

The movies play with similar things by having the characters constantly passing around their energy which revitalizes and buffs up someone else (99.99% of the time its Goku)

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83240: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:50:29 PM

Healing isn't exclusive to Namekians, but it is something they can innately have the talent for. Otherwise we've only seen it from more magical beings like attendants.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83241: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:51:29 PM

[up][up][up] Then do it in the moments where he can think.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83242: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:55:24 PM

Two episodes later, after Ultra Instinct? I'd prefer my exposition delivered as poetic background dialogue over an epic fight rather than just stated after-the-fact.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83243: Apr 19th 2018 at 6:59:03 PM

Whis isn't poetic though.

That implies the peanut gallery ever had anything meaningful to say.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83244: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:03:43 PM

The writing for that scene is very poetic, and it stood out to me as genuinely beautiful and deep, which is the whole reason why I even remember it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#83245: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:09:36 PM

I feel that is strongly overselling it.

It really wasn't deep, and it's a pretty basic concept described that has been used before.

The ideas behind it could be nice but it doesn't work as well if you need a narratir to explain it rather than being able to show it through Goku's behaviour.

And thid happening over recycled animation just damages the scene.

edited 19th Apr '18 7:09:48 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83246: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:20:51 PM

Show, Don't Tell is overrated. I can think of many films and shows where telling was more effective than showing would've been. It's all about whether the writing is good enough to surpass the visuals, and I thought it was there.

It also helps that Whis' voice is perfect for exposition, there's a level of incomprehensible wiseness that he can convey when he wants to.

Fair point on reusing the intro animation, it's why I specifically praise the writing in the scene.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83247: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:26:27 PM

What absolute nonsense, actions speak louder than words any day.

The TOP can be improved if all the unnecessary jargon from the peanut gallery was cut out.

Silence is Golden after all.

edited 19th Apr '18 7:28:59 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#83248: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:31:33 PM

I actually agree with Pushover about Show, Don't Tell for the most part, though I don't think Super does (or rather, did) exposition particularly well.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#83249: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:34:13 PM

Rather than just the exhaustion aspect, Mastered apparently caused Goku to sperg out before he could finish Jiren because his body couldn't handle the strain.

I feel like that was more a side effect of getting exhausted and breaking through his limits four times in a row, rather than something inherent to Ultra Instinct.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#83250: Apr 19th 2018 at 7:55:37 PM

Wait Goku healed Freeza by lending him a cup full of ki

So I guess people can learn to heal but they just don't?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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