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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#83126: Apr 17th 2018 at 4:59:01 PM

If you keep doing something like that, it stops being a subversion.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83127: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:12:05 PM

I question how much the smaller fighter winning is even a subversion. That's been a trope since forever.

This song needs more love.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#83128: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:26:23 PM

I ask a very similar thing as well, I wonder if Dragon ball is all that subversive.

"Mai waifu."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#83129: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:30:01 PM

Yeah, it's been noted before that the ultimate enemy being smaller is something that's not culturally uncommon over in Japan, and is arguably more common than having the big bads be bigger and more physically intimidating. It's certainly a genre staple in Shonen.

edited 17th Apr '18 5:30:29 PM by KnownUnknown

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83130: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:32:25 PM

Well the only shonen pre-DB I can think of is Fist of the North Star where that is explicitly not the case.

The reason it became a thing is because DB was so influential.

If it's a cultural Japanese thing then I guess that might be it. I don't know enough about that sort of stuff.

edited 17th Apr '18 5:32:57 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83131: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:33:12 PM

Hell, if anything, they subverted that stereotype with Nappa (bigger and stronger than all the heroes and actually stomped them into mush) and Recoome.

Especially, the latter, who ever Vegeta couldn't stop. Not so much when Goku came along but still.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83132: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:35:01 PM

But Nappa is bigger than Vegeta, who's over 4 times stronger than him.

edited 17th Apr '18 5:35:16 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83133: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:35:14 PM

I think it's interesting that they did it again with Toppo and Jiren. While Jiren is indeed smaller than Toppo, that's because Toppo is freakin' huge. Jiren's still taller than most of the heroes, and WAY buffer than them.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#83134: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:35:18 PM

@Rob: Nappa wasn't the big cheese though. Vegeta was, and he was smaller than both Nappa and Goku.

Ninja'd.

edited 17th Apr '18 5:35:41 PM by Moth13

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83135: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:35:36 PM

The smaller person beating the larger one has been a thing since at least David and Goliath and probably before that as well.

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83136: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:36:18 PM

With Toppo & Jiren you can tell who's the Rival cause the latter is the more serious looking one.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83137: Apr 17th 2018 at 5:41:32 PM

@Rob: Nappa wasn't the big cheese though. Vegeta was, and he was smaller than both Nappa and Goku.

True. I didn't say it was perfect, but Goku's the main hero, so of course he's stronger.

And Vegeta is an example of Toriyama's usual stuff anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
lycropath Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#83138: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:07:06 PM

Wasn't the novel idea he had just that Frieza's progressively larger and more monstrous forms ended with a very smaller and more seemingly harmless form? More Bishōnen Line then David And Goliath.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#83139: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:09:56 PM

From what I understand Japan has a very different ideal of what a "strong person" looks like. Their ideal image of strength is a lean but muscular person like a gymnast, emphasizing speed and tactics in addition to physical power. A very large, burly person closer to the Western idea of a "strongman," conversely, would be seen as a big galoot too dumb and slow to reasonably defeat the prior-mentioned sort of person.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83140: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:12:14 PM

Yeah.

I'm sick of it. It's predictable.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#83141: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:14:52 PM

If I ever do a comic like this my hero's gonna be a big buff guy.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83142: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:16:14 PM

It's not like the characters in Dragon Ball aren't beefcakes.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#83143: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:17:52 PM

They lost a lot of their muscles though.

Krillen looked more like a midget than a child back then.

And the less said about the U6 Saiyan's, the better.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83144: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:19:59 PM

True, but the little guy utterly crushing the big dude is too much of a stereotype.

I mean, I'm not saying the bigger guy should dominate either. I want variety. It comes off as not being able to think of a way to make the bigger dude interesting.

If they really want to surprise us, have the big guy win for reasons beyond just being a big dude. Proved a real shock.

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#83145: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:21:26 PM

Solution: Make everyone a stick figure.

Everyone.

This song needs more love.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#83146: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:21:45 PM

[up][up][up]The U6 Saiyans are always going to be a fun point for both sides because most of them have forms that make them super buff.

[up][up]King Piccolo.

edited 17th Apr '18 6:22:13 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83147: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:27:37 PM

King Piccolo won because he had the higher power level, which is a whole 'other kettle of fish in DB...though being a demon, he should be far stronger than what the series is familiar with at that point, so I guess that's not actually bad.

One Strip! One Strip!
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#83148: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:30:59 PM

I think there's a memecomic floating around the web for the subject. Something "Surely my superior speed will allow me to defeat him" something

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#83149: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:36:05 PM

Come to think of it, there was a joke in Abridged where Goku assumed Oozaru Vegeta would be much slower due to his increase in size...which he was not.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#83150: Apr 17th 2018 at 6:38:54 PM

Pretty sure that happened in the actual series, too.


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