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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82426: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:00:50 AM

But fighting as a group doesn't work.

If the other guy is stronger, he just stomps.

Krillin, Tien and Yamcha couldn't do anything against Piccolo, despite him beaten half to death when he latter was fighting Goku.

Piccolo and Goku got utterly wrecked against Radizt, even with everything they tried (though the Special Beam Canon might have worked if Piccolo had better aim and had both his arms).

Working together in Dragonball means nothing if the other guy is stronger, even if that dude has been weakened before and the other guys are fresh, so why would it work now?

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82427: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:02:21 AM

Also Dragon Ball doesn't really have a situation where different people working together could be a cool interplay of different powers.

Everyone mostly just punches and shoots different shaped lasers.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82428: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:03:11 AM

[up][up] They... they beat Raditz. I mean, yeah, Goku died. But they did win.

Also the entire Vegeta fight is a group effort, for instance.

"Working together in Dragonball means nothing if the other guy is stronger, even if that dude has been weakened before and the other guys are fresh, so why would it work now?"

But... it has. You are basically describing the Vegeta fight.

edited 29th Mar '18 8:04:36 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82429: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:06:44 AM

I don't get it Handsome Rob, you're always being passive aggressive about how Dragonball doesn't allow for strategy, clever moves, teamwork, or weaker characters contributing. So why are you complaining when the show actually changes itself up to allow for things like that?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82430: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:08:00 AM

I admit I forgot that one. The Vegeta fight was the lone exception, and that was only because he decided to worf the Spirit Bomb twice.

Also Dragon Ball doesn't really have a situation where different people working together could be a cool interplay of different powers. Everyone mostly just punches and shoots different shaped lasers.

Pretty much, and it's not an ineffective method. When you're all different shades of Lightning Bruiser, there's no need for anything fancier then different shaped lasers really.

[up]Edit: Eh, mostly because as much as I hate it, I've accepted that that's how it works. More to the point, while I do want those things, even I think it needs to be done in a way that works with how the verse is established, otherwise you have to turn you brain off to enjoy it, which can be hard.

...And now, I must undertake the nigh impossible task of not being Passive Aggressive about this anymore...which I will fail at.

I've always been a damned broken record. I need to stop.

edited 29th Mar '18 8:10:02 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82431: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:09:20 AM

That was a good fight, in terms of slowly tearing down a brick wall by headbutting it.

Wish there were more fights like that.

I can see why the Freeza fight wasn't. Big ol' super saiyan moment. Maybe Cell should have been more of a group effort than 'shoot him in the back repeatedly' because it would have been a good twist on the whole holding out for a hero that the whole arc had been doing. All waiting for Goku-t. I guess Goku going 'nah its Gohan' is also a twist but.

The Kid Buu fight goes somewhat in that direction but its more like a tag team match. Which is also good.

edited 29th Mar '18 8:10:06 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82432: Mar 29th 2018 at 8:09:29 AM

Funnily enough it only becomes actual coordinated teamwork once Frieza enters the final stretch.

With Vegeta its just random acts of violence.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82433: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:13:21 AM

Regarding 17, I feel like there's some false dichotomy going on here that acts like saying he was overexposed and his treatment made no sense is the same thing as saying he shouldn't have had any awesome moments or been used. It isn't.

His performance in the early tournament was pretty cool, but then you have stuff like him lasting against Toppo and Jiren, pulling a Heroic Sacrifice and still living (he's not the only one who did it, but it's telling he's the other person they did it with) and actually winning....yeah.

And 17 is the first person to get a hit that does any damage on Jiren. Think about that. Seriously, before Ultra Instinct Goku or anything else, 17 is the one who does something that seems to have an affect and make Goku go "I know how to defeat him! Hit him really hard with his guard down!". Just ignoring the obviousness of that insight for a second, that's just...

But, again, none of this means you're wrong for liking 17 or what he did. Just accept that these are things that other people are going to dislike and leave it at that. Repeated comments of "17 was great, there's no reason to have any issue" or neither polite nor constructive.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:14:13 AM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82434: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:19:10 AM

I think that's a fair argument.

I imagine it must get frustrating for some people when something they liked is dumped on.

I think it's kinda like that stuff with Tien, where because some people try and hype him up to be bigger than he is, others overcompensate by trying to downplay everything he's ever done.

I'd forgotten 17 got in the first hit on Jiren. That is kinda bull.

Whatever the case, lets see how the manga handles things; it tends to be a lot more compressed, but I don't think it will overplay things with 17 either.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82435: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:27:43 AM

Yeah, if there's anything pathetic it's the TOP's attempts at having characters display martial arts strategy. Also on this list is Vegeta's "I've seen through your attack" which is just - his attack is throwing loads of punches, how do you see through that? It just brings into focus how lacklustre a lot of the choreography is and has been for a long time.

Heck, it's not that I don't get people's problems with 17, I do understand that - I just don't understand why people are picking on him in particular when he's far from the only or worst offender here, and is the only character for whom the show ignoring stamina doesn't apply to.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:29:02 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82436: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:28:38 AM

I'd forgotten 17 got in the first hit on Jiren. That is kinda bull.

Whatever the case, lets see how the manga handles things; it tends to be a lot more compressed, but I don't think it will overplay things with 17 either.

It's bullshit that 17 did damage by shooting him in the back? Why do you think that?

Anyway, I really don't see the manga changing such a huge plot point as 17 making it to the end and winning, so if that's the problem people had then the manga isn't going to placate them.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#82437: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:33:28 AM

Considering Goku was nearly killed by a laser what 17 did seems a lot more believable of what should happen if you catch someone by surprise that is a lot stronger than you are.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82438: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:34:47 AM

It is just following the same pattern that Super has laid out, but that pattern is bullshit for how the series normally worked before it. So people are still going to be annoyed by it.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82439: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:37:31 AM

The only thing I'm annoyed by is that they are taken off guard, not that taking someone off guard shouldn't do more damage - it should.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82440: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:40:16 AM

Taken someone off guard should do more damage when we have a reason to think you actually should be capable of hurting them at all. We did not have that for Jiren and 17.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:40:38 AM by LSBK

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#82441: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:40:25 AM

[up][up]Yeah the amount of times people let their guard down despite the reminder to not let their guard down quite a bit and lot more times than when their we're legitimate sneak attacks used that would catch a person by surprise.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:40:49 AM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82442: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:42:28 AM

It's just weird that they'd ever drop their guard that much.

And these guys should be so strong that even that doesn't do much.

I mean, lets all bow our heads in memorial for that poor axe that met Kid Goku's head years ago.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82443: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:42:34 AM

As with a lot of things with the TOP, I don't necessarily have a problem per se with 17's high prominence in the arc, just with the fact that nearly everything about him is completely inexplicable.

Jiren's the other big example of this. There's no set up there, but the story keeps pushing them as if there is, so it just comes off as "whelp, this one guy with no personality is our big bad for some reason" and "whelp, a secondary villain from the Cell arc is now one of the most powerful and virtuous people in existence for some reason" with little actual backing in the plot.

If this was going to ultimately be an arc where 17 is reintroduced, came into his own as a hero outside of the bubble he's made for himself, and ultimately proves to himself and others as unselfish enough to be the savior of the multiverse, then it should've been that arc. If that's the direction this plot was going to take, there should've been more than just small reintroduction where he's just powerful - give and explanation or a set up for his boost in strength. There should've been more interaction between him and other characters before things really picked up, to build up more about him. There should've been more development about how his stakes in the tournament were changing: maybe instead of having Gohan and such react to universe's dying, you slowly see 17 react more and more. Etc.

That's in a nutshell why it feels like Character Shilling: because there's no substance to 17's newfound paramount importance. He just is. Honestly, it's more baffling than anything.

But that's one of the big problems with the TOP: it wants to be a bunch of arcs all at once. 17 being the hero. Freeza having a Hazy-Feel Turn. Goku vs Jiren. And all the minor plots running through there (which could've been handled if the set up wasn't so clumsy). In the end, it doesn't know which one it wants to be, but hastily chooses the former.

I've said before that I suspect the finale was written and maybe even animated before the rest of the arc. It's really does run off of the assumption there would be more substance preceding it than there actually was.

edited 29th Mar '18 9:45:53 AM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82444: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:45:42 AM

If this was going to ultimately be an arc where 17 is reintroduced, came into his own as a hero outside of the bubble he's made for himself, and ultimately proves to himself and others as unselfish enough to be the savior of the multiverse, then it should've been that arc. If that's the direction this plot was going to take, there should've been more than just small reintroduction where he's just powerful - give and explanation or a set up for his boost in strength. There should've been more development about how his stakes in the tournament were changing: maybe instead of having Gohan and such react to universe's dying, you slowly see 17 react more and more. Etc.

I guess Toriyama just felt like doing stuff with 17. Toei probably ran with it a bit too much however.

One Strip! One Strip!
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#82445: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:50:08 AM

Before Universe 6 was erased I had assumed the stakes we're real, but if any universe had members left when time ran out, but lost would have their best fighters sent over to the winning universe.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#82446: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:52:15 AM

i don't even understand the supposed """conflict""" that 17 is having, or the characters treat it as

like. bulma can literally buy you a boat. she can buy you all the boats. a boat or any sort of vacation is literally not a problem in the least. why on earth is his wish treated as giving up the wish he "really" wanted? why did Super even try to act like 17 would rather have a boat than the lives of other universes??

bulma can get him all the boats

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82447: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:52:58 AM

Sounds about right.

Toriyama dictated the elimination order so they're stuck with 17 lasting until the end. (And with Jiren being a big nothing). And like the earlier discussion re: blame allocation, Toei then failed to best capitalize on what Toriyama handed them.

Although the thing about Toriyama's outline reminds me of Tooth and Claw where showrunner RTD handed a writer an outline of everything he wanted in the episode including kung fu monks, a werewolf, Queen Victoria, and the Koh-i-noor diamond among others and the writer turned in a script that only had some of those things because sometimes for reasons of plot cohesion you just can't connect all the dots. So RTD took a crack at writing the episode himself and long story short I don't think its a good episode.

So its easy to write an outline to hand to someone else. They're the poor slob that has to find the connective tissue between points.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#82448: Mar 29th 2018 at 9:55:45 AM

I just thought of something for a conversation long over, so sorry to bring it back up. It's extremely unlikely for Kale and Caulifla to ever kiss on the lips, even if they are canonized as an Official Couple, just because of how Dragon Ball handles romance. The only Official Couple to ever share a kiss with each other is Future Trunks and Future Mai, and that was to deliver a Senzu and it was made a joke out of. They very well could be an Official Couple, they've acted about as romantically towards each other as Goku and Chi-Chi have.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#82449: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:00:28 AM

[up]...did you miss literally everything I wrote about the status of how LGBT couples (or rather, lack-thereof) are treated in Japan and Japanese media?

Trying to act like they could possibly be an Official Couple ignores the context in which Super was written, which is 1. dismissive and possibly offensive towards LGBT, especially lesbian, people in japan, and 2. incredibly important when looking at potential "couples" in Japanese media.

[down]also that

edited 29th Mar '18 10:03:09 AM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82450: Mar 29th 2018 at 10:02:31 AM

The issue is not whether Kale or Cauliflia will ever kiss. The issue is whether the series will ever address them as an Official Couple. You have been told repeatedly why the signs you sight as romantic really don't mean that's likely to happen, and yet you keep ignoring them.

This isn't about hating Kale of Caulifla, or the ship (again, I don't actually think it would be a healthy relationship, but also again, Dragon Ball), this about the fact that the way they're relationship is portrayed is very common, and almost never actually leads to, or is intend to be, seen as genuinely romantic. If they do actually clarify that they're lesbians/in a romantic relationship, great. But they haven't as of now.

Edit: partially [nja]'d.

edited 29th Mar '18 10:04:17 AM by LSBK


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