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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#82226: Mar 25th 2018 at 9:22:12 PM

[up][up][up]I think that would have been kind of contrived. No more contrived than anything else in Super, mind, but that's no excuse.

This song needs more love.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#82227: Mar 26th 2018 at 3:51:04 AM

And hence why I say "if it doesn't bother you, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it's not going to be mentioned."

Yeah that's what I meant, criticize all you like if Dragon Ball tries and fumbled somewhere.

BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#82228: Mar 26th 2018 at 8:05:37 AM

To be fair they could've had a regular tournament were nothing bad happens. :p Edit: I'm joking. Folks would complain there's no stakes :p

edited 26th Mar '18 8:17:12 AM by BigBlackBangBro

35 year old white man.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82229: Mar 26th 2018 at 8:16:46 AM

Grand Zeno wants the coolest fight ever and people fight harder when they think they're fighting for their lives.

Now that I think about it, the ending explains why it was so easy for Bergamo to get the Zenos to agree to spare the universes if he won his fight with Goku.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#82230: Mar 26th 2018 at 8:22:40 AM

Yeah, Bergamo is exactly the kind of person this tournament was made for. As opposed to Frost or Freeza.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82231: Mar 26th 2018 at 8:54:33 AM

What kind of person? Bergamo didn't care about saving anyone except his own Universe. He phrased the request the way he did to make himself look better and to put pressure on Goku, not because he cared about the others.

edited 26th Mar '18 8:54:50 AM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#82232: Mar 26th 2018 at 8:59:16 AM

That interpretation is entirely unsupported. Yeah, he makes Goku look like a bad person... because he has every reason to think that Goku is. He doesn't just ask for U9 to be spared, he asks for all the universes to be spared, including Goku's.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#82233: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:02:31 AM

Well, about the expected wish, remember that both Zen-oh and the Grand Priest were comfortable with Goku being casual around them, in contrast with everybody being submissive and trying to enforce said submissiveness.

Not a single one of the Gods would dare wish the Universes back, because they are terrified of Zen-Oh. But, Zen-Oh has shown on repeated ocassions he doesn't care for protocol very much.

So basically, they were testing if mortals could go in Screw The Rules Im Doing What Is Right mode.

Or, in other words, the Kaioshins and Hakaishins need to take their sticks out of their asses.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82234: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:09:02 AM

[up][up]If by "unsported" you mean "doesn't mesh up with your preferred interpretation", sure. Because while Bergamo certainly has no reason to like Goku, he was also clearly trying to rally support against Goku to make himself look as good as possible, make Goku look as bad as possible, and was smug throughout the thing.

This was all very clear, to me anyway, and I know I'm not the only one to see it that way.

edited 26th Mar '18 9:11:44 AM by LSBK

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82235: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:10:24 AM

I think maybe if you've established yourself as someone who wipes out universes on a whim people have a good reason to be afraid of you. And also if you create a system where a giant cat man has to weed out life leaving only 28 planets with life on them you have also established yourself as someone to be feared for their capriciousness.

Goku is buddy buddy with him because there is possibly something wrong with his actual brain.

[up] Does smugness condemn you if you also save every universe?

edited 26th Mar '18 9:10:56 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82236: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:12:46 AM

[up]I'm not saying every universe being saved was bad, I'm saying that Bergamo didn't actually do it that way because he cared about saving every universe, he wanted to frame the situation in a very specific way.

It's not like Bergamo wanted the other universes to be erased, but saying he'd actually care about saving them if his own universe wasn't on the line is not something I'd take as a given.

edited 26th Mar '18 9:13:45 AM by LSBK

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82237: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:16:22 AM

The show wants you to think Bergamo is being sneaky and selfish, since Whis points that out, but I don't think it really lines up at all with what actually happens, and seems to only be there to save face for Goku.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82238: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:17:08 AM

I mean, I didn't even remember that Whis said anything, and am basing my assessment on Bergamo's words, actions, and how the scene was framed. I guess it's just YMMV then.

Doesn't really matter though, my point wasn't that Bergamo is an awful person, just that his actions were primarily for self-preservation and not altruistic.

edited 26th Mar '18 9:21:02 AM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#82239: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:23:43 AM

Whis only points out that he's good at working the crowd and is painting Goku like a villain. I don't see why Bergamo's action of asking Zen-Oh to spare everyone should be undermined by the fact that he happens to be good at public speaking and he villainizes someone whom he has every reason to think is a villain.

Palkia62 Since: Feb, 2018
#82240: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:32:04 AM

[up] It's not what he asks for that's bad, it's that he's only doing it for his own self gain. He knows that if he asks for just his own universe to be spared, than all the other gods would come to hate him and universe 9 for his selfishness, which would be bad at the tournament. He's cunning enough to realise there's more to gain and less to lose for universe 9 by asking for all of the universes to be spared as opposed to just his own.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82241: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:34:53 AM

Bergamo's a smart wolf.

Which makes sense since he comes from the Mad Max universe & is thus a survivor as to survive ya gotta be smart.

edited 26th Mar '18 9:35:18 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82242: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:36:41 AM

[up][up]Basically this. That he's acting for self-preservation doesn't mean that others can't be benefitted from it. I would say "right thing done for wrong reason" but I don't even think it counts as the "wrong" reason. just not the "best" reason.

With that in mind you can't necessarily count on him to do same thing in a situation where he knows that himself and Universe 9 are safe.

edited 26th Mar '18 11:29:50 AM by LSBK

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#82243: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:37:08 AM

Right thing done for pragmatic reasons

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82244: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:38:22 AM

Considering how dumb Goku was coming off as, even simply pragmatic was enough to make Bergamo look good.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#82245: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:40:23 AM

You think Karrot should be smarter?

Should the situations that took place in Super have been more dire?

He only seems to appear smarter when things are actually serious.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82246: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:41:01 AM

Really, if this was what they were going for, having Gohan being the last one standing would have worked much better. I buy him wanting to make this wish, but also having the presence of mind to try and make a heart-felt plea or something that might actually get emotional.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#82247: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:46:45 AM

Pfft, that would require actually giving Gohan something to do. Can't have that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#82248: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:47:59 AM

Sometimes doing nothing is better than doing something.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#82249: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:49:38 AM

I thought it was pretty clearly established that Bergamo's little speech was his way of making himself, and Universe 9 by proxy, look good. Keep in mind that it comes after El Grande Padre is all "Man, it sure is great seeing such entertaining fights from these shitty universes. Especially Universe 9, which is the worst."

Sure, his actions were good for everyone involved, but that's the point. He's doing that to save everyone so that people won't go away remembering "Haha, Universe 9 sure sucks" but "Wow, Universe 9 is so noble and they saved all of us from being erased!"

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82250: Mar 26th 2018 at 9:50:43 AM

Ya gotta respect a pragmatic mutt.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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