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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82001: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:51:28 PM

His personality is just Goten and Trunks's combined. He's not a character. It is a relevant factor.

Fusions are people onto themselves, and even aside from that he's a character in the literary sense. Saiga already called you out on this, but I would actually be interested in you explaining why you think him being a fusion some reason doesn't count.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#82002: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:51:40 PM

[up]Really, the arc was an excuse to have a giant 80 man battle royale. A pure Tournament Arc. There was never supposed to be any real plot development in it.

Also, I would argue that with Mastered Ultra Instinct, Goku is probably on par with Beerus by now.

Jiren was supposed to be more powerful than your standard God of Destruction. Beerus has admitted that he is not the most powerful of the Gods of Destruction. Mastered Ultra Instinct overpowered Jiren.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:51:51 PM by DarkHunter

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82003: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:53:20 PM

[up] That would mean more if the grand majority of this 80 man tournament weren't a bunch of scrubs.

Only a handful of people were actually worth their shit.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:53:41 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#82004: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:54:18 PM

Oh yeah the fact that Goku is still weaker than Beerus after this is annoying.

So, Mastered Ultra Instinct isn't that different to Omen. Yes, it has the thoughtless attacking Omen lacked, and an arbitrary bigger power-up, but the main flaws in being unable to call it at will or the temporary use aren't fixed at all.

That leads me to believe that Omen won't have any place in the manga, and while I was initially of the belief that Omen was a good idea to build up MUI, I actually think it's better not to have it if MUI is going to be flawed in the same way.

[up][up] Yes, but MUI isn't something Goku has any control over, as the closing scene stated. So he can't count on it.

As for the excuse for the 80 man tournament, I feel that's not true. The 80 man tournament is the excuse to provide the context for the small number of fights that actually matter.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:56:04 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82006: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:58:18 PM

Wait I thought Mastered UI was Omen/Blanco?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82008: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:01:34 PM

Ultra Instinct Omen (or Sign in english) is the term for the black haired incomplete Ultra Instinct. Think of it like being a hint of what's to come.

[up]Nice to see they've reached Super Saiyan Blue level.

edited 24th Mar '18 10:02:46 PM by Moth13

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#82009: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:08:35 PM

I don't count Gotenks as a character because if you sat him in a room for enough time he would revert to the two people who actually make him up. He's no more a character than Super Saiyan Goku is a different character to Goku. He's just a form.

He is just Goten and Trunks blended together, there is nothing original to Gotenks that is not somehow a product of either of those two.

Like, I understand why other people might count him, but I don't.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#82010: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:09:04 PM

Marron doesn't have a scratch on her.

Clearly, she's the strongest of the three.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#82011: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:09:49 PM

Or she just fought teh people and not their battleships.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#82012: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:22:29 PM

[up][up][up] It doesn't matter how you feel because it's acknowledged and confirmed in-universe that fusions are entirely separate beings from their components. Vegetto refers to Goku and Vegeta in the Third-person, not the first is an indicator of that.

edited 24th Mar '18 10:24:31 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82013: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:24:11 PM

"More than just the sum of their parts" and all that.

Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
#82014: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:31:41 PM

I can't help but feel that they didn't wrap things as nicely as they did on GT because they will try to make another series later... Episode was the best. Good animation, the moments were legit hype and I giggled like a little girl when I heard the lyrics of Ultimate Battle. The fact that Jiren got a bit of development thanks to Toppo - despite him calling Toppo trash before, made him a lot more likeable.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82015: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:44:05 PM

While I'd hesitate to say Gotenks is a character separate from Goten and Trunks at the moment, I do think he has the potential to be one. He has flaws and foibles that the two of them don't - he's the only fusion that really feels that way - and I've always thought it would be interesting to see an arc foil Goten and Trunks with their fused self on those grounds.

Really, the arc was an excuse to have a giant 80 man battle royale. A pure Tournament Arc. There was never supposed to be any real plot development in it.

Which is fine for an arc that's short and sweet. Not for one that takes up an extreme amount of time and fakes out the audience by promising the fate of the multiverse is on the line.

it's also noticeable because Toriyama in the past generally used Tournament Arcs as cappers or stepping stones within bigger stories, even if they themselves were rather inconsequential. The first tournament, for example (the one with the least greater significance), is the finale of Goku's training arc with Roshi and cements the introductions that were started there.

edited 24th Mar '18 10:49:36 PM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82016: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:48:00 PM

My issue with how this turned out is that I don't buy the Zenos to be the Secret Test of Character type. I could buy something like convincing the Zenos future tournaments would be more fun with more people around or something, though I still wouldn't like it, but that fits better with how the character has been established than something like this.

And it's not even a good test of character, because if things go wrong instead of just punishing the wrong-doer they were going to destroy the entire multiverse, apparently.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82017: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:51:39 PM

With how the Zeno's normally act them actually being smart enough to do a Secret Test of Character is completely unbelievable.

That is way too complex for them unless Grand Padre recommend it to them.

edited 24th Mar '18 10:59:07 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#82018: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:52:23 PM

It's a good way to start over...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
#82019: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:55:22 PM

Yeah that felt incredibly weird and also it won't fit on the manga continuity - since they were thinking there were too many universes to handle there.

A best excuse would be to say that the tournament is so good it could be held again and again without multiversal erasure on the line, and also restore the universes inside U7 or the other remaining universes. Instead of literally everything coming back to what it was before.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82020: Mar 24th 2018 at 10:55:24 PM

[up][up][up]And that's another issue; that we're supposed to see this as surprisingly wise and mysterious when it isn't. There are several holes in the entire line of reasoning and, if that were the point, the Zenos didn't really think it through or whatever, that wouldn't be good, but it would fit better with the characters. But as it stands we're supposed to genuinely think they were being wise/smart and they just weren't.

edited 24th Mar '18 10:55:39 PM by LSBK

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#82021: Mar 24th 2018 at 11:02:26 PM

I can see it working in asshole god logic. The universes were on the chopping block because of low mortal levels. So if the best person from the best universe turned out to be selfish, then there was no help for any of the ones who didn't make the cut. Obviously extremely callous and wrong to conflate fighting ability with morality, but that's gods for you. Wakka wakka.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#82022: Mar 24th 2018 at 11:05:16 PM

But Mortal Level wasn't about strength, and there's no reason to assume that strength equates to morality. And the Mortal Level was just a pretense for Zeno to decide which universes were candidates to get rid of since he thought there were too many anyway.

Like I said, my issue isn't really with there being holes or callousness, the issue is that we're not supposed to think there are holes or callousness involved and that this is somehow profound or reflects well on the Zenos.

The actual epilogue part of the episode is fine, I think, if nothing special. But the justification for why they're going along with restoring the universes doesn't mesh as something the Zenos would be thinking.

edited 24th Mar '18 11:08:00 PM by LSBK

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#82023: Mar 24th 2018 at 11:15:57 PM

Good animation this episode, weird plot developments like this tournament being a secret test of character despite the writers not giving us any hints at such.

Also, Android 18 is a horrible person. "B-But what about your boat?!" The fuck?

And Whis can just revive people on the spot, apparently.....

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#82024: Mar 24th 2018 at 11:18:01 PM

Whis is really powerful. I am not shocked he can do anything.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#82025: Mar 24th 2018 at 11:21:46 PM

Too powerful one might say.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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