Really, the arc was an excuse to have a giant 80 man battle royale. A pure Tournament Arc. There was never supposed to be any real plot development in it.
Also, I would argue that with Mastered Ultra Instinct, Goku is probably on par with Beerus by now.
Jiren was supposed to be more powerful than your standard God of Destruction. Beerus has admitted that he is not the most powerful of the Gods of Destruction. Mastered Ultra Instinct overpowered Jiren.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:51:51 PM by DarkHunter
Oh yeah the fact that Goku is still weaker than Beerus after this is annoying.
So, Mastered Ultra Instinct isn't that different to Omen. Yes, it has the thoughtless attacking Omen lacked, and an arbitrary bigger power-up, but the main flaws in being unable to call it at will or the temporary use aren't fixed at all.
That leads me to believe that Omen won't have any place in the manga, and while I was initially of the belief that Omen was a good idea to build up MUI, I actually think it's better not to have it if MUI is going to be flawed in the same way.
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Yes, but MUI isn't something Goku has any control over, as the closing scene stated. So he can't count on it.
As for the excuse for the 80 man tournament, I feel that's not true. The 80 man tournament is the excuse to provide the context for the small number of fights that actually matter.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:56:04 PM by Saiga
I don't count Gotenks as a character because if you sat him in a room for enough time he would revert to the two people who actually make him up. He's no more a character than Super Saiyan Goku is a different character to Goku. He's just a form.
He is just Goten and Trunks blended together, there is nothing original to Gotenks that is not somehow a product of either of those two.
Like, I understand why other people might count him, but I don't.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Marron doesn't have a scratch on her.
Clearly, she's the strongest of the three.
One Strip! One Strip!Or she just fought teh people and not their battleships.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.![]()
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It doesn't matter how you feel because it's acknowledged and confirmed in-universe that fusions are entirely separate beings from their components. Vegetto refers to Goku and Vegeta in the Third-person, not the first is an indicator of that.
edited 24th Mar '18 10:24:31 PM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I can't help but feel that they didn't wrap things as nicely as they did on GT because they will try to make another series later... Episode was the best. Good animation, the moments were legit hype and I giggled like a little girl when I heard the lyrics of Ultimate Battle. The fact that Jiren got a bit of development thanks to Toppo - despite him calling Toppo trash before, made him a lot more likeable.
While I'd hesitate to say Gotenks is a character separate from Goten and Trunks at the moment, I do think he has the potential to be one. He has flaws and foibles that the two of them don't - he's the only fusion that really feels that way - and I've always thought it would be interesting to see an arc foil Goten and Trunks with their fused self on those grounds.
Which is fine for an arc that's short and sweet. Not for one that takes up an extreme amount of time and fakes out the audience by promising the fate of the multiverse is on the line.
it's also noticeable because Toriyama in the past generally used Tournament Arcs as cappers or stepping stones within bigger stories, even if they themselves were rather inconsequential. The first tournament, for example (the one with the least greater significance), is the finale of Goku's training arc with Roshi and cements the introductions that were started there.
edited 24th Mar '18 10:49:36 PM by KnownUnknown
My issue with how this turned out is that I don't buy the Zenos to be the Secret Test of Character type. I could buy something like convincing the Zenos future tournaments would be more fun with more people around or something, though I still wouldn't like it, but that fits better with how the character has been established than something like this.
And it's not even a good test of character, because if things go wrong instead of just punishing the wrong-doer they were going to destroy the entire multiverse, apparently.
It's a good way to start over...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Yeah that felt incredibly weird and also it won't fit on the manga continuity - since they were thinking there were too many universes to handle there.
A best excuse would be to say that the tournament is so good it could be held again and again without multiversal erasure on the line, and also restore the universes inside U7 or the other remaining universes. Instead of literally everything coming back to what it was before.
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And that's another issue; that we're supposed to see this as surprisingly wise and mysterious when it isn't. There are several holes in the entire line of reasoning and, if that were the point, the Zenos didn't really think it through or whatever, that wouldn't be good, but it would fit better with the characters. But as it stands we're supposed to genuinely think they were being wise/smart and they just weren't.
edited 24th Mar '18 10:55:39 PM by LSBK
I can see it working in asshole god logic. The universes were on the chopping block because of low mortal levels. So if the best person from the best universe turned out to be selfish, then there was no help for any of the ones who didn't make the cut. Obviously extremely callous and wrong to conflate fighting ability with morality, but that's gods for you. Wakka wakka.
But Mortal Level wasn't about strength, and there's no reason to assume that strength equates to morality. And the Mortal Level was just a pretense for Zeno to decide which universes were candidates to get rid of since he thought there were too many anyway.
Like I said, my issue isn't really with there being holes or callousness, the issue is that we're not supposed to think there are holes or callousness involved and that this is somehow profound or reflects well on the Zenos.
The actual epilogue part of the episode is fine, I think, if nothing special. But the justification for why they're going along with restoring the universes doesn't mesh as something the Zenos would be thinking.
edited 24th Mar '18 11:08:00 PM by LSBK
Good animation this episode, weird plot developments like this tournament being a secret test of character despite the writers not giving us any hints at such.
Also, Android 18 is a horrible person. "B-But what about your boat?!" The fuck?
And Whis can just revive people on the spot, apparently.....

Fusions are people onto themselves, and even aside from that he's a character in the literary sense. Saiga already called you out on this, but I would actually be interested in you explaining why you think him being a fusion some reason doesn't count.