TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81976: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:05:28 PM

I thought the ending here was pretty great. Goku and Frieza fighting together is pretty awesome, and somehow I knew 17 was gonna win the tournament which is just hilarious yet also awesome. Jiren's also actually got character now.

Was not expecting it to all be a Secret Test of Character, but in retrospect I guess that's the most sensible "out" for them to take here. I considered maybe it was a gambit on El Grande Padre's part, but didn't expect Zen-o himselves to be in on it.

Either way, thanks for saving the omniverse Dr. Gero.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:08:04 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#81977: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:06:45 PM

See, it's my firmest belief the actual reason Beerus brought Freeza back is because he does a much better job of keeping the universe in order than himself. So Beerus let's Freeza work, and Beerus can just sleep all day. And Freeza gets to torture and enslave as many planets as he wants....yay?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81978: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:07:00 PM

3x[up]Lots of people... hmm.

Not counting Hyperbolic Time Chamber, only Gohan and Piccolo from what I can recall actively passed Goku after falling behind in terms of power - counting it, you throw in Vegeta and F. Trunks.

Of these only Gohan passed him for any length of time.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:08:06 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81979: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:14:32 PM

Vegeta did so before the time chamber. More than once.

Piccolo (twice), Vegeta (three times minimum), Gohan (twice minimum), Cell, Boo, Gotenks, Trunks, Freeza (RF). Those that didn't basically never had any chance.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81980: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:15:20 PM

[up][up][up] I feel like Beerus should lose his job now.

He's such an incompetent buffoon & it be a good way to change the Status Quo by getting rid of the character who can solve most of the series problems if he wanted too.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:15:32 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#81981: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:15:28 PM

I'm confused, what are we talking about that lots of characters have done?

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81982: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:16:42 PM

I don't count Gotenks because that's a fusion.

Golden Freeza never really passed Goku.

I don't count Vegeta on Namek because by the time Goku was a factor again Goku was already stronger.

Also, a lot of these characters aren't even party members, just enemies, I thought we were talking about allies? Because a lot of those characters (Cell, Boo) were just brought in stronger than Goku.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:19:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81983: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:19:10 PM

No I think Golden Frieza was stronger than Goku Blue.

He only won cause he could outlast Frieza's Golden mode.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#81984: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:19:44 PM

Golden Freeza never really passed Goku.

It was suggested (especially in the Super version of the story) that he had Goku beat in raw strength, but lost in stamina.

Course, that's no longer true after Goku did Kaio-ken Blue.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:20:14 PM by DarkHunter

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81985: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:20:03 PM

Yeah, stamina's the weakness, and he wasn't stronger enough to overwhelm SSB, which IMO means he wasn't really stronger, if you're only that for such a brief period.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81986: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:21:14 PM

Yeah, but in order for it to mean something, Frieza has to do it and stay like that long enough to kill Goku's ass.

It won't mean anything if it only lasts for a few seconds, which is may as well for everyone else who's done it.

One Strip! One Strip!
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#81987: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:22:19 PM

Iirc, movie had them more even which I preferred over TV rendition where Freeza just dominated [nja]

edited 24th Mar '18 9:22:43 PM by vicarious

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81988: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:23:46 PM

Yeah those characters unambigiously 100% surpassed Goku even if you choose not to count it. Vegeta fighting Freeza was stronger than Goku until Goku's next zenkai.

Gotenks counts because he was initially weaker than Goku

surpassing Goku isn't hard, nor does it matter because of how easily it can be reversed

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81989: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:29:26 PM

surpassing Goku isn't hard, nor does it matter because of how easily it can be reversed

I suppose I should have put it as that in the first place. Goku is easy to pass, but hard to stay ahead of. Worse yet, when he does pass you, it won't just be slightly. He'll blow so far ahead of you that the fact that you were ever stronger than him will seem like a massive joke.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81990: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:32:50 PM

Gotenks doesn't count because he's a fusion. He's not one character.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81991: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:33:29 PM

That doesn't make sense to discount him.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81992: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:34:49 PM

He's not one character. It's not one person.

I only count Piccolo because he's basically absorbing people to become stronger. But Gotenks is two separate characters temporarily joining forces in one body.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#81993: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:36:18 PM

Speaking of Namekian fusion the reveal that the universes were never in any real danger as long as the tournament winner was selfless... kinda sucks for the Namekians that fused into Saonel and Pirina, no?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81994: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:37:05 PM

And that's simply not a relevant factor in this. It doesn't matter.

Gotenks has his own personality and 'existence' even if he's made of fusion. That kind of distinction isn't important. He IS a character. And one who started out weaker than Goku, but surpassed him through training.

[up] Haha yeah, fuck those guys.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:37:21 PM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81995: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:37:10 PM

[up][up] maybe they can use the super dragon balls to reverse that fusion.

[up] His personality is just Goten and Trunks's combined. He's not a character. It is a relevant factor.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:38:21 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81996: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:38:54 PM

Is Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81997: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:40:35 PM

[up][up] That's simply not true, and I don't know how you even came to that conclusion when there's no evidence for it. Like, 'character' is a writing concept, and he is absolutely a character by narrative definitions. In-universe, he is also literally a person. You can't perfectly meld two minds and not have something different to the original parts, that doesn't make any sense.

[up] Yes. Pre Super, anyway. It's kind of a big plot point of the Boo arc.

edited 24th Mar '18 9:41:56 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#81998: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:41:22 PM

Yes, because Super Saiyan 3 Goku was only a little stronger than fat buu,and Gotenks fought Super Buu evenly at Super Saiyan 3.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#81999: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:44:41 PM

Though in the end, both forms have the massive stamina problem. It's just that Goku never realized until he actually wanted to win.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#82000: Mar 24th 2018 at 9:47:13 PM

So I finally watched the final episode in full.

I really liked the finale. Like, everything from the moment Jiren is defeated is imo surprisingly good to watch. Animated well, a fun denouement, warm fuzzy feelings. But it would've been a lot better if the arc was about half as long and the things it concludes were established better - which gives me the impression that it was written and possibly animated first, or at least early on before the bulk of the plot was actually produced.

Especially the bit with 17 - if it was supposed to be surprising that 17 would wish to save everyone, then there should've been some actual set-up that he only cared about his family or hadn't completely gotten over his selfishness or something. But, like a lot of things about 17 in Super, he is what he is and everything surrounding that is rather inexpllicable as always.

There's also the nagging issue that nothing actually happened in this arc. Goku and Vegeta got stronger, inasmuch as their next levels mean anything in the vacuum Super has rather embraced, but nothing changed - he's still not as strong as Beerus but on the road to it. His relationship with Zeno is the same. His relationship with Whis is the same. Zeno and the Grand Priest are revealed to be exactly as neutral as they appeared to be beforehand. None of the characters have made any difference to themselves or the world around them. Each of the universes is back exactly as they were left, and though we know more characters across the multiverse now only like three or four of those characters would've been important going forward anyway.

The whole this is just kind of... pointless, gratuitous fighting with no other narrative intention. Which I've suspected was what they were going for for a long time now. And even that might've been fine, if the arc wasn't over a year long and promised a weight to things that it wasn't intending to follow through on!

edited 24th Mar '18 9:49:04 PM by KnownUnknown


Total posts: 130,800
Top