See, it's my firmest belief the actual reason Beerus brought Freeza back is because he does a much better job of keeping the universe in order than himself. So Beerus let's Freeza work, and Beerus can just sleep all day. And Freeza gets to torture and enslave as many planets as he wants....yay?
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.3x
Lots of people... hmm.
Not counting Hyperbolic Time Chamber, only Gohan and Piccolo from what I can recall actively passed Goku after falling behind in terms of power - counting it, you throw in Vegeta and F. Trunks.
Of these only Gohan passed him for any length of time.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:08:06 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't count Gotenks because that's a fusion.
Golden Freeza never really passed Goku.
I don't count Vegeta on Namek because by the time Goku was a factor again Goku was already stronger.
Also, a lot of these characters aren't even party members, just enemies, I thought we were talking about allies? Because a lot of those characters (Cell, Boo) were just brought in stronger than Goku.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:19:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Yeah, but in order for it to mean something, Frieza has to do it and stay like that long enough to kill Goku's ass.
It won't mean anything if it only lasts for a few seconds, which is may as well for everyone else who's done it.
One Strip! One Strip!Yeah those characters unambigiously 100% surpassed Goku even if you choose not to count it. Vegeta fighting Freeza was stronger than Goku until Goku's next zenkai.
Gotenks counts because he was initially weaker than Goku
surpassing Goku isn't hard, nor does it matter because of how easily it can be reversed
I suppose I should have put it as that in the first place. Goku is easy to pass, but hard to stay ahead of. Worse yet, when he does pass you, it won't just be slightly. He'll blow so far ahead of you that the fact that you were ever stronger than him will seem like a massive joke.
One Strip! One Strip!He's not one character. It's not one person.
I only count Piccolo because he's basically absorbing people to become stronger. But Gotenks is two separate characters temporarily joining forces in one body.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"And that's simply not a relevant factor in this. It doesn't matter.
Gotenks has his own personality and 'existence' even if he's made of fusion. That kind of distinction isn't important. He IS a character. And one who started out weaker than Goku, but surpassed him through training.
Haha yeah, fuck those guys.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:37:21 PM by Saiga
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maybe they can use the super dragon balls to reverse that fusion.
His personality is just Goten and Trunks's combined. He's not a character. It is a relevant factor.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:38:21 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
That's simply not true, and I don't know how you even came to that conclusion when there's no evidence for it. Like, 'character' is a writing concept, and he is absolutely a character by narrative definitions. In-universe, he is also literally a person. You can't perfectly meld two minds and not have something different to the original parts, that doesn't make any sense.
Yes. Pre Super, anyway. It's kind of a big plot point of the Boo arc.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:41:56 PM by Saiga
Though in the end, both forms have the massive stamina problem. It's just that Goku never realized until he actually wanted to win.
One Strip! One Strip!So I finally watched the final episode in full.
I really liked the finale. Like, everything from the moment Jiren is defeated is imo surprisingly good to watch. Animated well, a fun denouement, warm fuzzy feelings. But it would've been a lot better if the arc was about half as long and the things it concludes were established better - which gives me the impression that it was written and possibly animated first, or at least early on before the bulk of the plot was actually produced.
Especially the bit with 17 - if it was supposed to be surprising that 17 would wish to save everyone, then there should've been some actual set-up that he only cared about his family or hadn't completely gotten over his selfishness or something. But, like a lot of things about 17 in Super, he is what he is and everything surrounding that is rather inexpllicable as always.
There's also the nagging issue that nothing actually happened in this arc. Goku and Vegeta got stronger, inasmuch as their next levels mean anything in the vacuum Super has rather embraced, but nothing changed - he's still not as strong as Beerus but on the road to it. His relationship with Zeno is the same. His relationship with Whis is the same. Zeno and the Grand Priest are revealed to be exactly as neutral as they appeared to be beforehand. None of the characters have made any difference to themselves or the world around them. Each of the universes is back exactly as they were left, and though we know more characters across the multiverse now only like three or four of those characters would've been important going forward anyway.
The whole this is just kind of... pointless, gratuitous fighting with no other narrative intention. Which I've suspected was what they were going for for a long time now. And even that might've been fine, if the arc wasn't over a year long and promised a weight to things that it wasn't intending to follow through on!
edited 24th Mar '18 9:49:04 PM by KnownUnknown

I thought the ending here was pretty great. Goku and Frieza fighting together is pretty awesome, and somehow I knew 17 was gonna win the tournament which is just hilarious yet also awesome. Jiren's also actually got character now.
Was not expecting it to all be a Secret Test of Character, but in retrospect I guess that's the most sensible "out" for them to take here. I considered maybe it was a gambit on El Grande Padre's part, but didn't expect Zen-o himselves to be in on it.
Either way, thanks for saving the omniverse Dr. Gero.
edited 24th Mar '18 9:08:04 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!