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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81726: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:05:35 AM

The only indication of it not being a difficult skill prior to this is... nothing. After this there's Vegeta learning it, but I'm not a giant fan of that moment either. The fact that no one in Freeza's whole army knows how to do it (even though some high ranking people know how to control their own ki) shows that it is not a skill that pops out of nowhere.

And even if it's not a difficult skill... it's still a skill. You still have to be taught it. And water cannot do that. (and as Freeza's army shows it's not just awareness that pops out either). Even if the water wasn't a totally unearned silly powerup idea that the series had already made fun of in the previous arc this particular aspect of it takes the cake.

"There is no indication that using the Mafuba would sacrifice the human he borrowed. That goes against everything in that arc."

Except that

  1. The Mafuba kills you if you perform it
  2. Gods cannot commit suicide (and suicide would defeat the purpose of using it at all since Piccolo Jr. would vanish, so why not just power down and have Popo kill him)

Therefore, the only possible answer is this - the Mafuba would have killed the host body. Either God is a dickhead, or God is a liar.

Heck, even if God was able to perform the Mafuba through a host body without killing anyonenote ... why didn't he intervene when King Piccolo returned?

edited 21st Mar '18 3:16:14 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81727: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:11:43 AM

It's less a skill and more an ability. You just have to be aware it exist...and patience.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#81728: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:16:09 AM

I think it would've been better if Vegeta had explained that he spent most of his time coming back in his saiyan pod and in the healing tank trying to figure out ki sensing in a sort of meditative state. That's more believable than "I can just do it now because why not".

edited 21st Mar '18 3:17:12 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81729: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:16:58 AM

No, you don't have to be taught it. Plenty of skills aren't taught. Also, you keep ignoring that several characters showed signs of the ability before hand, including Goku. Goku could already detect 'presence'. Having that upgraded via the water is fine.

No, that's not the answer. God is very explicitly not intended the harm the host body, making that interpretation impossible. He has to be capable of using it without dying. This isn't addressed, which is a plot hole, but the later explanations would be that the Mafuba kills the user because of the energy use, and God was able to use it without overtaxing himself compared to Roshi.

You've just... decided yourself what does and doesn't work in order to come to that conclusion, and you're just flat out wrong.

As for why he didn't do it against Daimao, he explains that he wasn't aware of the technique. He must not have witnessed Mutaito the first time, but saw Roshi attempt it. So he learned to do it himself. The entire Daimao thing was wrapped up really quickly.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:18:58 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81730: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:18:48 AM

If that's true, then why didn't he intervene against King Piccolo before. Heck, the second time he could have at least helped fight King Piccolo and restrained him even without the Mafuba, just helped knock him unconcious. KP is his responsibility after all.

Any way you split this, God is a massive douchebag.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:20:19 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81731: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:19:43 AM

As he explains himself, he learned of the Mafuba for the humans and decided to use it against junior. Therefore, he didn't know about it until after Daimao was released the second time, at which point Daimao was dealt with very quickly.

No, he isn't, because you've built a house of cards out of incredibly wrong assumptions.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:20:02 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81732: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:21:55 AM

Also, I'm looking at chapter 165 right this second and you're completely wrong when you say this:

"God didn't intend for Goku to fight Piccolo, so he focused on finding a way to deal with it himself."

Chapter 165: "Mr. Popo and I have our reasons not to fight. Only you can kill him and instill peace again. Understand?"

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#81733: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:23:27 AM

Kami being leagues stronger than King Piccolo creates problems, because there's no reason he couldn't have easily just beaten him into submission.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81734: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:25:31 AM

No, what I'm talking about comes after that and is addressed by God. He initially believed he couldn't intervene because it'd be suicide (that's his 'reason' he talks about) and then changes his mind with the Mafuba plan.

Now, there's the issue that he should have already seen the Mafuba at this point, and therefore know of a way to stop Daimao, but either that's a small plothole or he hadn't come up with the plan yet.

[up] That wouldn't solve the problem.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:25:49 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81735: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:25:49 AM

[up][up] He says he can't commit suicide, but his death would also cause Piccolo to die so him not just asking someone to kill him (him being God) and then letting them is another plot hole.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:28:06 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81736: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:26:12 AM

No it doesn't. Letting someone kill Daimao isn't suicide, he's pretty clear on this.

He doesn't intend to live. But Gods can't commit suicide (this rule isn't expanded on, but it's important to note that Gods are appointed so they must have rules to follow).

Shit, this is explained in the very chapter you referenced. God outright says 'I can't commit suicide, so Goku has to kill Daimao'.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:27:55 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81737: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:27:07 AM

But he's training someone to kill himself by proxy!

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81738: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:28:10 AM

Which he outright acknowledges as different.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81739: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:28:44 AM

Doesn't he try to kill Majunior after he's knocked out anyway?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81740: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:29:52 AM

All of which gets thrown out of the window when he nearly does kill Piccolo Jr. after Goku knocks him out and has to be physically restrained from doing so.

[nja]'d

Why? The latter's unconcious! Why not just grab a thermos flask and a notepad and Mafuba him? The initial plan, which he'd spent no less than the better part of three solid years working on.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:31:43 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81741: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:33:36 AM

Yeah, but Goku calls him out on it and references the rule. The issue is that at that point, God just wants Piccolo dead.

He clearly didn't want to live, and at first tried to use Goku to get around that, but then saw a way that he could deal with Piccolo while still keeping with his duties, and then that failed and he saw an opportunity to just finish him that he didn't want to miss.

Piccolo also wasn't unconscious, unless you think he can chew by himself while out cold. And Goku has the jug, which Kuririn points out makes it his fault that Piccolo didn't get sealed.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:35:33 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81742: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:35:17 AM

So he's so impulsive and dumb that Goku - Goku - has to remind him of his responsibilities.

I am still seeing absolutely zero evidence of God's competence from the beginning of the series till now.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:36:46 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81743: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:36:40 AM

Again, he saw the Mafuba fail and Goku didn't kill him. What else is he going to do? The Mafuba isn't portrayed as something so easy to set up, and Goku still had the bottle (as Kuririn points out).

Goku proceeded to let the guy go against God's wishes, I can see why he tried to kill him.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81744: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:37:41 AM

You don't need a specific bottle, you just need a seal card and a container. KP himself was sealed in a frikkin rice cooker. You could stick Jr in a bottle of Glengoolie Blue if you wanted to.

The Mafuba requires three things:

  1. A container
  2. Seal paper
  3. A bunch of hand seals performed over a short period

Jr. 's still down. God wouldn't have the opportunity to kill him if he wasn't down. He's not in any condition to perform the reverse wave.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:39:41 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81745: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:41:14 AM

So he's so impulsive and dumb that Goku - Goku - has to remind him of his responsibilities.

Kami tried to pass his role over to Karrot, so that should say how much he cared about his responsibilities.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81746: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:43:14 AM

[up][up] And you've just assumed God can pull a new seal and container out of nowhere. Which is never assumed by the characters.

Piccolo is down, that doesn't mean he's going to stay down if God doesn't try to capitalize on the opportunity.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:44:03 AM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81747: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:44:01 AM

As well as never displayed as a thing he can do.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81749: Mar 21st 2018 at 3:45:01 AM

He doesn't even try.

This is not an urgent situation. Piccolo Jr. is down, worn out, lacking energy, and just had the shit kicked out of him, whereas Goku has access to senzu. And that was in a 1-on-1 fight. You also have 3 or 4 fresh fighters right there to pin PJ's injured body. God has the time to go get another Mafuba card. But he doesn't, and instead acts massively rashly.

edited 21st Mar '18 3:46:24 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81750: Mar 21st 2018 at 4:05:34 AM

The fact that he tries to sneakily do it means that he knows Goku would try to stop it. That's why he does it the way he does.

So, in the end, it seems that most of these issues stem from you making a large number of assumptions based on incomplete information. And when those assumptions are incompatible with the series, it must be the series that is wrong.

Also, despite how much this went off on a tangent, it doesn't even relate to your original idea. These problems would still exist in your version, but be even worse. Everything that happens would make less sense if God were training Goku the entire time, or never got involved despite having the ability and willingness to do so, or went in with the Mafuba plan after preparing Goku to be plan A.

Why would God leave Popo to train Goku to fight Daimao? There's even less reason to do that in your example than in canon. Also, it really devalues Daimao as an antagonist to introduce God and Popo prior to his defeat, especially in establishing that Goku will get second-best training to handle him. Talk about lack of tension.


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