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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81701: Mar 20th 2018 at 9:50:04 PM

[up][up][up] Also, nothing about Freeza has been unpredictable, except the fact that Boo got shafted. Which is really more 'there's no way they'd conspire to keep him out again' than it being a genuine twist.

And from day one most people expected him to have a major role or last a long time to justify bringing him back.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#81702: Mar 20th 2018 at 9:52:57 PM

I'm kinda hope that new animation for the movie is gonna be used in the next show.

I like it, its quirky & feels rather soft.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81703: Mar 20th 2018 at 10:00:20 PM

If by "less predictable", you mean the writers needlessly shilling 17 every chance they get. He has somehow survived longer than Vegeta and Gohan. Let that sink in.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

We can frikkin tell what characters were gonna go and in what order before the tournament even starts. That for an interesting show does not make. Heck, even Dragonball itself hasn't really kept precisely to that formula except for keeping Goku for last (or Gohan). Stronger characters got killed or taken out before weaker ones all the time.

Also, if you want to talk shilling Gohan's somehow gone from being barely able to go SSJ in ROF all the way back up to ultimate form in like, what, a year? And Vegeta got kicked out, sure, but he spent a lot of time fighting Jiren entirely by himself including giving Goku a shitton of energy right at the last second. It's not like he got knocked off out of nowhere. He spent like three episodes straight hogging the limelight.

In addition, 17's the only U7 character still standing who I'm able to buy, without suspending my disbelief entirely, having the stamina to keep on fighting (thanks to that infinite battery).

Sometimes I think if the Saiyan Saga was just written today we'd have people complaining that they were shilling Yajirobe. The only really major disreptancy for me is that 18 hasn't been keeping up with him at all.

edited 20th Mar '18 10:10:37 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#81704: Mar 20th 2018 at 10:03:10 PM

I mean, the bigger issue with Gohan was that they made him that much weaker, in such a comparatively short amount of time, in the first place.

Being unpredictable isn't inherently good. I know that's not actually what you're saying, I'm just expressing annoyance at the fact that many people genuinely seem to think "I didn't see this event coming, so it must be a good twist", when often times you don't see something coming because it's stupid and makes no sense for the story.

edited 20th Mar '18 10:03:26 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81705: Mar 20th 2018 at 10:09:00 PM

I do get what you're saying, we do have the Shocking Swerve trope for a reason after all. I can think of plenty of shows that have fucked themselves over trying for a twist.

edited 20th Mar '18 10:09:30 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#81706: Mar 20th 2018 at 10:41:02 PM

Do you think Gods of Destruction and Supreme Kais have the same lifespan? I would assume as such given they have a life-link, it wouldn't make much sense for one to die long before the other. And if that's the case, how long do Supreme Kais live for? I know normal Kais live for 75,000 years, and Beerus/Old Kai are at least 75 million years old(Old Kai looks old because he fused with an old witch), but I'm not sure if it's ever stated what a Kaioshin's lifespan is beyond "not being The Ageless"

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#81707: Mar 20th 2018 at 10:49:11 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't have minded making 17 someone cool or that people care about, but they went overboard with it, arguably to the detriment of others on the team and the opponents credibility. Not that many characters in this tournament had much credibility to begin with, but still.

How so?

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#81708: Mar 20th 2018 at 11:10:28 PM

I will say, that is another thing I have to give GT credit for in hindsight, they actually went forward with Vegeta mellowing out.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#81709: Mar 20th 2018 at 11:38:43 PM

I always liked how when it seemed hopeless against Omega Shenron, Vegeta states that he can't bear to lose a second home.

I think that was the first time he actually referred to the Earth as his home, despite living on it for a good while.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#81710: Mar 20th 2018 at 11:43:05 PM

I will forever maintain that Vegeta going shopping with Bra is one of his best moments.

This song needs more love.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81711: Mar 21st 2018 at 12:07:44 AM

[up][up]GT did Veggie's development better...in a way.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81712: Mar 21st 2018 at 12:52:23 AM

Just asking, does anyone else think the original King Piccolo arc would flow better if instead of the Ultra Divine Water Goku trained with Popo and trained with God in the intervening time between the KP arc and the 23rd TB, instead of training with both of them in that time?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81713: Mar 21st 2018 at 1:00:22 AM

A lot of things would probably flow better if things were actually planned out ahead of time...

Apply some foreshadowing, why not?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#81714: Mar 21st 2018 at 1:41:58 AM

Freeza instead of Buu was a good move. Take a look at Fighter Z to see how having Buu around looks like.

He is a bit of an one-note character. Him and Gotenks would get obnoxious fast.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81715: Mar 21st 2018 at 1:44:46 AM

That's not the best example...

Boo's candy shtick wouldn't really come up often during actual fights...

edited 21st Mar '18 1:48:37 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81716: Mar 21st 2018 at 1:49:38 AM

[up][up][up][up] Nope. That's like, the opposite of flow, and doesn't work with several plot points in both the 23rd and Saiyan arcs.

[up][up] Freeza's an extremely one-note character. This arc did a lot better with him, there's no reason it couldn't do the same as Boo.

Fighter Z's story mode is complete garbage so I wouldn't use that as an example of anything.

edited 21st Mar '18 1:51:05 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81717: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:15:41 AM

You yourself said that Goku just seems to learn ki sensing as a result of drinking magic water. That seems like something a mentor should teach him.

There's also no reason to saddle him with two mentors in the 23rd and none in the KP arc.

I have no idea what Saiyan arc plot points don't work as a result.

On the other point: I wouldn't call Freeza one note, exactly. I think he has significantly more to offer than Buu. Really, I'd say that they should have just had one extra spot and dropped Buu in there, I don't think it would have made much difference.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:21:43 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81718: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:29:37 AM

Karrot didn't really learn anything from Kami directly, wouldn't really call him a mentor.

Neither did the other Z Fighters for that matter.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81719: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:30:25 AM

Another problem this change would solve.

The only issue I could see happening is to do with the timeframe, but Goku's gotten way stronger by just climbing up a tower and chasing a cat for three days so I think it's not exactly breaking with what's previously been established.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:32:17 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81720: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:31:35 AM

"Problem" you say?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81721: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:32:41 AM

The problem that Kami is useless at... well, damn near everything.

I've talked about this before but he did jack shit to help stop King Piccolo, a problem he helped create, and when he went down to deal with Piccolo Jr. his master plan involved sacrificing a totally innocent civilian to try and use the Mafuba on him.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:34:29 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81722: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:34:11 AM

[up]x5 Or he could just learn it from the water, that worked fine. Pretty immediate way to show something has changed about him. There's also evidence that he could do so before drinking the water, and it just improved from that.

There's also no reason to have a mentor in the Daimao arc, or a problem caused by two in the 23rd arc. In fact, the dual mentors

As I've explained before, basically everything God does in the 23rd arc is because he didn't train Goku alone and didn't realize how much he improved. He intended to deal with Junior himself, and did not expect Goku to be able to. Multiple plot points rest on this. In the Saiyan arc, God declaring that he would personally oversee the humans' training lets the audience know that they will receive better training than Goku did, so we should expect more from them. Otherwise, the expectation would be that the humans couldn't keep up long before Nappa arrived.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

We can frikkin tell what characters were gonna go and in what order before the tournament even starts. That for an interesting show does not make.

It doesn't make for an inherently uninteresting one either. It rests on a hell of a lot more than that detail.

Also, 17 surviving isn't an example of a weaker or minor character surviving against all odds. He was given a major power boost and a ton of focus to go with it, so it's not even subversive, just... really friggin odd.

Having a less obvious elimination order could be beneficial if it was not tied to strength or importance. But it wasn't, the characters who lasted longer also got more focus (Roshi compared to Kuririn/Ten, Goku/17/Freeza compared to... everyone) and were made to look cooler and more awesome. The reason people are shocked by 17 lasting this long is because of what that really means - he was given an inappropriate role.

Having character eliminations be less predictable could work just fine if characters still had an appropriate level of focus and importance. A powerful character could be eliminated early while still looking strong. An important character could be eliminated early, while still having an appropriate amount of focus prior to their elimination. But that's not the approach taking, which is why choices like 17 are ridiculous.

And saying Gohan is shilled off one power-up is silly. That's not shilling, most of it was just undoing the unnecessary crap they did with him. Gohan was handled pretty okay, definitely could have been done better given his position. 17 is nothing but shilled, there is very little reason for him to be so strong, or to get as much focus, or to be considered so cool, but they push him throughout the entire arc.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:34:26 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#81723: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:36:16 AM

Or he could just learn it from the water, that worked fine. Pretty immediate way to show something has changed about him. There's also evidence that he could do so before drinking the water, and it just improved from that.

The water is a dumb, dumb, dumb plot device that provides a totally unearned powerup, and that getting more powerful should teach you a skill is also really dumb.

As I've explained before, basically everything God does in the 23rd arc is because he didn't train Goku alone and didn't realize how much he improved. He intended to deal with Junior himself, and did not expect Goku to be able to. Multiple plot points rest on this. In the Saiyan arc, God declaring that he would personally oversee the humans' training lets the audience know that they will receive better training than Goku did, so we should expect more from them. Otherwise, the expectation would be that the humans couldn't keep up long before Nappa arrived.

God not training Goku personally is just another... well, not quite plot hole, but it is massively idiotic. Why didn't he train Goku personally? The only evidence we had is that he thinks Goku isn't strong enough to defeat Piccolo Jr. so he goes down himself - but he could have believed that for other reasons besides power (maybe he thinks Goku is too cocky to defeat him or is suddenly filled with doubts about his student). God not training Goku personally on the other hand, just makes him look like a lazy idiot. He doesn't do anything to stop Piccolo before twice (unless he was the one who taught Mutaito the Mafuba, not sure on that, can't remember, but he sure didn't help in person despite having quite a bit of power). Then he not only doesn't properly train Goku, he chooses to instead sacrifice a guy to seal away Piccolo instead.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:43:06 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#81724: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:40:59 AM

Again, that's only a problem due to lack of foreshadowing.

Like, if Korrin actually hinted at there actually being the power-up water beforehand...while the decoy is more of a regular training thing.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#81725: Mar 21st 2018 at 2:48:48 AM

Nah, the water is fine. It's not so much teaching the skill as the potential for it being unlocked. It's not a hard skill anyway, and several characters possessed it before it.

There is no indication that using the Mafuba would sacrifice the human he borrowed. That goes against everything in that arc.

God didn't intend for Goku to fight Piccolo, so he focused on finding a way to deal with it himself. I mean, what reason does he have to train Goku if he believes he can handle it himself? Even as a back-up plan, it's the opposite of what he wants, and he didn't believe Goku would succeed anyway. He didn't have much reason to think Piccolo would have a counter to the Mafuba, and he didn't have much reason to think Goku would be able to get as strong as he did from his training.

edited 21st Mar '18 2:50:01 AM by Saiga


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