You can get away with once or twice, but when something is consistently unimpressive, people are going to complain about it.
You can go on about evening out fights as much as you want, but if the character never actually has an important win with it, it's basically meaningless.
edited 16th Mar '18 10:10:51 AM by LSBK
That makes no sense. If Freeza does manage to beat Jiren, it will solely be due to damage inflicted from Ultra Instinct Goku. Nobody else aside from Goku in that new form could've possibly done the kind of damage to Jiren that I'm talking about, so it wouldn't be pointless. Everything has a narrative point, even if the point isn't to win.
He's also apparently a contrarian (I believe it's been mentioned in an interview), and his desire to subvert expectations might grow out of that. In other words, the more people want certain thing to happen, the more likely he is to not do it because he enjoys messing with the fans a bit too much (killing Vegeta because people didn't want him to do it).
Interesting. That's a huge difference. Maybe Mojito's reaction wasn't quite as clear in the outline.
There's a lot less fanfare about it, and it sounds like Tien and Krillin didn't do as much as they did before being taken out like in the anime, which is in line with how Toriyama does things really. I'm guessing Roshi won't last too long either, which is probably how it should have gone.
One Strip! One Strip!"it looks cool, and they beat some fodder with it" can only carry something for so long.
I think the conflict is coming from the different between winning the fight and succeeding in their goal. Super Saiyan God lost the fight against Beerus, but because of it Goku convinced Beerus to spare earth, so it resulted in a success. Goku didn't defeat Hit with Kaioken Blue, but because he forfeited the fight Hit ended up throwing his fight against Monaka, resulting in U7's victory. In Super Saiyan 3's introduction, Goku didn't defeat Buu, but he succeeded in his goal to stall Buu long enough for Trunks to get the dragon radar.
"But if I wanted to I could totally have beat him."
"Sure Goku. Sure."
x3: It seems to me that the outline is more of a Toei and Toriyama combo than ever before, considering the recent interview's details. Toyotaro also could very well be taking some elements from previously aired episodes, so maybe Roshi's moment next chapter will be as cinematic as his anime counterpart.
- It seems that this chapter is Freeza and Frost focused. In fact, they were the ones to do in Universe 9 (along with some collateral damage, rather than Goku and Vegeta) before Freeza eventually betrays Frost.
- Toyotaro's also relying on some offscreen eliminations to quicken the pace.
A full list of eliminations in this chapter:
- Krillin (Universe 7) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Dr. Rota (Universe 6) was eliminated by ?????
- Monna (Universe 4) was eliminated by ??????
- ????? (Universe 3) was eliminated by ??????
- ????? (Universe 3) was eliminated by ??????
- Tenshinhan (Universe 7) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
◊
- Oregano (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Roselle (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Hyssop (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Cheppil (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Sorrell (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Hop (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Comfrey (Universe 9) was eliminated by Frost (Universe 6)
- Frost (Universe 6) was eliminated by Freezer (Universe 7)
◊
- Lavender (Universe 9) was eliminated by Freezer (Universe 7)
- Basil (Universe 9) was eliminated by Freezer (Universe 7)
- Bergamo (Universe 9) was eliminated by Freezer (Universe 7)
edited 16th Mar '18 3:40:36 PM by XMenMutant22
@ Saiga: Oh shit, the Android Saga has permanent civilian casualties! And because it'll be over a year after their death when the Dragonballs are usable again, they're gone for good. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!
This isn't even the first time they've not reversed the damage of prior villains. When they wish back everyone killed by Frieza and his men, people Vegeta killed don't come back. However Tien and Yamcha don't come back either and need a later wish on the Namekian Dragonballs, meaning Nappa wasn't one of Frieza's men at that point either. So because the "can wish back multiple people" Earth Dragonballs are used more than a year after Nappa killed those people, and it's explicit that you can't bring multiple people who've been dead over a year, every civilian Nappa killed is also Killed Off for Real.
And before you say "Tien and Yamcha weren't killed by Saiyans directly", Guru's Death by Despair because of what Frieza's men should be less direct a kill than "getting killed by the orders of a guy by his mooks" or "exhausting yourself to death to kill this guy". Plus Nappa, showing Undying Loyalty to Vegeta, would only really be considered one of Frieza's men if Vegeta was one of Frieza's men. Which he wasn't at that point, otherwise he would've been revived because he was killed by Vegeta
edited 16th Mar '18 4:37:50 PM by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93
That's not how it works, the Dragonball can bring you back from further than a year, it just is limited in time if you're trying to bring back fuckloads of people (like an entire race).
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Whats interesting is that this means that every arc in Z there is a huge swathe of people that the heroes forget, neglect, or can't bring back
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI don't think I noticed before that the tv special portrayed Future Gohan as not just stronger than each Android individually, but stronger than both of them together, losing only due to teamwork on their part. It's a far cry from the manga Future Gohan, who goes in confident he can beat the Androids until 17 reveals that they've both been holding back half their strength the whole time.

A transformation's narrative purpose is to give you more power to either win the fight or even it out. If the latter, it's anyone's game, and it's still not pointless because it gave you enough power to even the fight out in the first place. The fight is its own reward, the journey is more important than the destination, etc. etc.