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Palkia62 Since: Feb, 2018
#80901: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:09:51 PM

[up] i agree with you that ultra instinct should have been a technique.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#80902: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:11:45 PM

I don't really care about a transformations' win-loss record. Just as long as they look cool and are a noticeable step up in terms of power, I'm fine.

If we're getting nitpicky, Super Saiyan Blue has a much better record of beating opponents than Super Saiyans 2 or 3 do (mostly because of this arc), and Super Saiyan God and Ultra Instinct both have a better record than 3. 3 is, to date, the only Super Saiyan form that has failed to ever defeat an opponent. People don't complain about 3 being useless, so I don't see the point in complaining about the other forms either.

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#80903: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:12:41 PM

At the very least, SSB brought absolutely nothing to the table that SSG didn't already. Especially since it came completely out of the blue *badum tsss*, even more so than SS3. It just felt completely superfluous. UI could have been a sort of mastered form of SSG, but at least it feels like it serves a purpose beyond "we haven't tried this hair color yet", even if it fails.

edited 11th Mar '18 6:15:51 PM by Lyendith

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#80904: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:13:38 PM

Dragon Ball Super: The Ballad of worthless transformations.

My various fanfics.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80905: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:16:17 PM

Blue never looked cool, it was always just an ugly recolor of the standard SS transformation only held up by having a fuller aura.

It only started looking cool when Kaio-Ken was added to it & now it just looks worse with Vegeta's evolution.

All in all Blue was a complete waste of time,effort, & materials that could have been better spent on other shit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#80906: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:25:17 PM

Super Saiyan God: Couldn't defeat Beerus.

Super Saiyan Blue: Couldn't defeat Freeza.

Golden Freeza: The dumbass didn't learn his lesson about power-bleeding.

Super Saiyan Blue x Kaiouken: It beat Hit, I guess.

The Magical Girls: Everyone laughed at them and they got their asses beat.

Super Saiyan 2 Cabba: Eliminated immediately by Freeza.

Kale, both Crazy and In Control: Nothing.

Muscular Caulifla: Nothing.

Kefla: Nothing.

Ultra Instinct: Couldn't beat Jiren

Super Saiyan Twlue: Couldn't do fuck all.

Mastered Ultra Instinct: Couldn't beat Jiren.

Did any transformation in this entire series accomplish anything?

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80907: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:26:02 PM

And Kaioken is only a thing in the anime, so even that doesn't work.

I agree that Blue was unnecessary in the end, but I guess Toriyama didn't want to abandon Super Saiyan.

I also agree that Ultra Instinct should have been a technique instead of a transformation, but Toriyama has never treated some techniques very well, often setting them up to fail, or using them once and then forgetting about them (hence characters not really having signature moves).

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#80908: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:26:29 PM

[up][up]Do you count Zamasu turning into the universe as a transformation?

edited 11th Mar '18 6:26:36 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#80909: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:27:27 PM

Still couldn't beat Zenou.

Oh, right!

Even More Angrier Trunks: Couldn't beat Zamasu

Bluegito: Couldn't beat Zamasu

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#80910: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:29:16 PM

Something about the constant transformations is interesting because of something Some Call Me Johnny went over in a group commentary of Budokai 1. When Goku and Gohan went Super Saiyan 1 and 2 respectively, it was the product of extreme emotional trauma. They were so overcome with rage that they just broke through their natural limits.

And the transformation drastically changed their personalities; they weren't the happy-go lucky people they normally were, but bloodthirsty warriors that just want to inflict pain.

Super Saiyan wasn't just a power up like it is now, it was a complete personality overhaul brought on by a Saiyan's base instincts taking over.

That and each transformation was brought on by some poignant moment; Goku watching Krillin die, and Gohan watching 16 die. Every transformation afterward just kind of happens and that's it.

I'm not saying every transformation needed to be like that, but it does make them feel less special when they're just treated like obligatory power ups rather than huge turning points for the characters involved.

edited 11th Mar '18 6:33:28 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80911: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:29:48 PM

Oh my God no one has won anything in this series.

Only against minor fodder in the tournament of power.

[up] That's why SS 3 is remembered. The intense transformation & music instilled it into people's minds. Blue lacked all of that.

edited 11th Mar '18 6:30:49 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#80912: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:33:15 PM

[up][up] For all of GT's faults, SS 4 was meaningful AND looked pretty damn awesome. UI changes Goku's personality quite a bit too… or it removes any kind of personality, you might say.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#80913: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:34:59 PM

SS 3 just kind of has the music, and the Anime extended the sequence a lot. Otherwise, it's not that much different from later transformations, and it literally only exists because of a retcon.

[up] Yea, SS 4 had that, so I can give it a pass on that over Blue.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80914: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:44:03 PM

People tend to forget the between 1 and 2 forms

Because they were used in one fight and also ultimately failed

edited 11th Mar '18 6:44:45 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#80915: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:47:45 PM

Well, those were kinda meant to fail, so…

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#80916: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:48:59 PM

Super Vegeta failed because of Vegeta. Super Duper Trunks failed because the form itself was shitty.

Nothing has shown that Super Saiyan Blue is treated as an inherently weak move that needs to be improved or worked at, it's just pathetically ineffectual.

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#80917: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:49:00 PM

And that they fall into the "obligatory" category I went over before.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80918: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:50:18 PM

People don't complain about 3 being useless

They do and I have. I would have been more lenient on the idea of it, though, if Super Saiyan 3 was shown as the wrong way to keep increasing your power and Gohan's Ultimate form was treated as the right way.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#80919: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:50:51 PM

Hard work as opposed to sitting on your ass and letting an old man reached deep inside you?

My various fanfics.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80920: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:52:17 PM

[up]

Exactly.

Maybe if Toriyama didn't keep coming up with ideas that were only meant to fail to build up someone else...especially when the dude they are building up fails anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#80921: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:56:48 PM

How you get your power up is pointless.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80922: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:58:43 PM

[up]

When the power up just fails and becomes useless anyway, then yeah. It is pointless how you get it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80923: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:59:50 PM

[up][up][up][up]Nah, that's one of the things I hate about Gohan's role in the Buu Arc. But I do like the concept of releasing potential energy in base form instead of trying to multiply that power with larger numbers, if that makes sense.

At the very least, I do think everything from Super Saiyan 2 onwards was fairly meaningless. Aside from Super Saiyan 4 in GT, which was treated as very powerful from introduction to the end of the series.

edited 11th Mar '18 7:01:08 PM by Hobgoblin

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#80924: Mar 11th 2018 at 7:04:15 PM

I think Mystic Gohan works with how Gohan had been built up and portrayed throughout the series. The "lack of work" didn't detract from it in my mind. It's too bad it was ultimately for naught.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80925: Mar 11th 2018 at 7:15:49 PM

Gohan gets a lot of build-up, but I have to wonder if there's a point in the plot where it feels like it should pay off. Like, in some regard, I like Gohan beating Cell because it's him literally surpassing the best aspects of every major warrior before him. There's also him succeeding where his future self failed.

On the other hand, Gohan also was virtually unimportant up until the fight with Cell, which doesn't give him much enmity with Cell. The Androids don't even really seem concerned with him despite him being their main target's son. Also, Future Gohan only lost because he didn't know about the Time Chamber, not because of some other flaw.

I'm kind of unsure how I feel about it all.


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