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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80876: Mar 11th 2018 at 7:44:56 AM

I mean, if we stack up all of Goku's wins, I'd argue that his most common victorious attack is ramming into someone - it's how he beats the Battlejacket, Tien, King Piccolo and Piccolo 2: Demonic Slugaloo.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80877: Mar 11th 2018 at 7:52:19 AM

Goku's wins for final bosses are Red Ribbon, both Piccolos, Frieza (kinda) and Buu.

He lost to Pilaf the first time, got beat by Roshi, had to die to stop Raditz, needed help to stop Vegeta (and lost the one on one fight), lost to 19, and gave up against Cell.

Tien is in a weird place in that he beat Goku (winning the match) but also lost to him (since Goku only lost by pure bad luck).

And then we get into Super, where he hasn't beaten anyone at all: lost to Beerus, lost to Frieza, gave up against Hit, failed to stop Black.

Guy is mess really.

One Strip! One Strip!
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#80878: Mar 11th 2018 at 7:58:39 AM

[up] What if he wins for real?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80879: Mar 11th 2018 at 8:01:15 AM

Honestly, I'm not sure about that. It's pretty clearly being set up for him to not win this one.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80880: Mar 11th 2018 at 8:01:35 AM

[up][up][up] I wouldn't call either 19 or Raditz final bosses, though I guess it can be argued the Battlejacket wasn't the final battle of the RRA arc either, it was technically Pilaf.

edited 11th Mar '18 8:01:49 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#80881: Mar 11th 2018 at 10:20:49 AM

@Moth 13: That wasn't anyone's argument. It was always more about the interview having the director pat themselves on the back for not doing what the old series did- which is concerning since Goku never "simply" fires off a Kamehameha to defeat a villain. It's always a build up with multiple people struggling against them before Goku/Gohan is able to pull victory.

Furthermore, even if we were talking literally it would still be an issue because it never happens in the series. No villain is defeated the same way, which is what Nakamura is outright saying. Like, even assuming he isn't speaking literally it's still a problem due to the implications that somehow all the previous villains ended in the same way (regardless of technique) which isn't true.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#80882: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:05:02 PM

Even assume Saiga, Epic Bleye, etc, are being a bit nitpicky, it seems to me the ones complaining about it are being way more loose about words than the others are being literal. I'm not really sure how that's any better.

Anyway something I've been thinking about: while it's true that a lot of people are under the impression "Goku always wins" or wins "too much", than he actually does, I do think it's interesting that the reality can also fuel resentment. Basically "why is he still the main focus if he's not even going to win in the end?". See Ash Ketchum for a character that's really big with that.

I don't usually see the point in complaining about who an author wants to make the main character, but that is something that's been on my mind lately.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80883: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:06:42 PM

They count the movie wins to Karrot's count even when they aren't canon.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80884: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:20:46 PM

Basically "why is he still the main focus if he's not even going to win in the end?". See Ash Ketchum for a character that's really big with that.

To be fair, Ash only fails because of an editorial fiat that's convinced him winning would end the show.

Goku doesn't win because...I guess the author is still trying to be subversive, but I don't know if Goku failing at the very end is that anymore, as people are aware he doesn't always win.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80885: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:40:48 PM

Generally, I think "Goku always wins" is a situation that comes around because there are rarely any mooks for the plebs to fight. They usually just fight the baddie and lose. Sometimes they even fight a mook and lose, and Goku kills the mook and the big bad. So it sometimes looks like the story only lets Goku, out of the heroes, win fights.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80886: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:53:16 PM

Which is also mostly a movie thing.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80887: Mar 11th 2018 at 12:56:22 PM

A subversive ending would be Piccolo or Krillin beating a major villain.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#80888: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:01:19 PM

Note: "subversive" does not automatically equal "good".

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#80889: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:04:24 PM

"Good" depends on execution. "Standard" doesn't equal "good" or "bad" either. On the conceptual level, very little does.

Hell, if this series did it's regular set up for powerups such, but for a different character than usual, I'd even be hard pressed to call it "subversive" - it'd still be more or less the same thing, just with a different character than expected.

edited 11th Mar '18 1:04:38 PM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80891: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:09:18 PM

I will say that repetition can really cripple a long running series, and most long runners that succeed do so by mixing up the formula every now and then.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80892: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:11:14 PM

We are all sick of new transformations cause they never net anymore wins.

Hell were all already turning on UI on the high possibility that it won't score him a win after all.

This series does not actually evolve its franchise.

edited 11th Mar '18 1:12:16 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80893: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:12:21 PM

I can't wait for the reveal that Belmod was Hermano in disguise the whole time.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80894: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:16:38 PM

[up][up]Evolution for Dragon Ball is bad.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#80895: Mar 11th 2018 at 1:16:43 PM

I like subversion of expectations in my media, but when you keep doing the same subversion repeatedly it stops being subversive and becomes trite.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#80896: Mar 11th 2018 at 5:53:17 PM

I agree that they've gone a little overboard with the transformations but it's not exactly detrimental. Personally, I'd be annoyed if we only got SSG out of all this. Besides, the brilliance of it all is that, unlike GT or even Z, none of these are just transformations people can just attain willy nilly. There are ceremonies involved and new types of energy like god ki. Like I'd be pissed if Goten could SSJB, but luckily that's impossible.

Just Having Fun
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#80897: Mar 11th 2018 at 5:56:30 PM

Ultra Instinct was more interesting when it was just a technique. It didn't need to be given to Goku as a transformation more powerful than the 2 God-Ki using forms.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80898: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:00:29 PM

And now it appears he might lose with it.

Meaning its just another useless transformation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Palkia62 Since: Feb, 2018
#80899: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:04:25 PM

It's not really the number of transformations that's the problem, it's the fact that basically each transformation has basically failed up to this point.

edited 11th Mar '18 6:04:39 PM by Palkia62

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#80900: Mar 11th 2018 at 6:08:00 PM

The majority of fans indeed don't care how many transformations the series makes up as long as there's a success under their belt. I'm not one of them. I think Super Saiyan God should have been it, with Ultra Instinct being a technique instead of a form for Goku to get it.


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