That is a far lesser crime than Toriyama leaving vague notes to begin with.
I doubt there's any expansion on Jiren's character Toei could have made that you would personally have found interesting, so it's difficult to hear the argument, "[Jiren's] quiet/stoic personality and backstory could have been made interesting if handled well."
If they had done something different, or thrown their own ideas in, a majority of the fanbase would see it as "ignoring Toriyama's vision" regardless.
Toriyama's notes haven't stopped them from adding their own ideas. But clearly they're willing to change their material if and when Toriyama actually goes, "no, that's not this character's personality at all!"
"If they fail to do so, that's on Toei?" You mean when they fail to do the thing that the fanbase typically frowns on them for doing in the first place? This is how that sounds to me - if Toei does it's own thing and it's bad, it's on them, and when Toei does what Toriyama suggests and it's bad, it's still on them for not doing their own thing.
The personality and direction they went with for Toppo is still better received. Jiren's boring nature is a result of them not putting their own spin on the character, or making him vastly different from what Toriyama envisioned. I won't fault them for that.
If Toppo is the more interesting character of the two then they should be praised for doing that switcheroo, not criticized for doing the one thing fans keep wanting them to do when it turns out to be a bad idea.
edited 9th Mar '18 9:37:14 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!See, while I get what you are saying, I'm not totally sure if we could say that it only failed because they followed Toriyama's notes. I mean, there surely must have been a way for them to make him interesting with what Toriyama gave them.
Now I admit that he should have been clear on what he wanted from the get go (instead of giving them so little to work with) but still.
I will say it's not fair to lay all the blame on one side or the other.
One Strip! One Strip!Implication would have to be substitute for such abilities...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.The lost secret art of
WORD MUNCHER
Battle cry: "I'll make you eat those words!"
Forever liveblogging the AvengersHe DEFINITELY is.
If they had done something different everyone would see it as "ignoring the original vision for Jiren."
I'm not sure how 'provide a brief outline' is a crime at all. It's certainly not comparable to 'spend an entire year failing to develop your final antagonist'.
And just about anything would be an improvement on Jiren's current characterization. Don't just assume I'd be unhappy, that's a non-argument. Already the manga version of Jiren shows more personality while doing nothing to contradict Toriyama's vision.
For some reason, it seems like you're assuming they CAN'T make an interesting character without doing something completely different to Toriyama's outline. But Toriyama's outline is way less restrictive than you're making it out to be - in fact, you give him shit for making it vague, but the vague it is? The more freedom Toei has to do what they want. The only thing they weren't allowed to do was give him a completely contradictory personality.
Clearly they pay enough attention when Toriyama actually consults them and tells them no.
See, you try to make that sound like a contradiction, but that can also be rendered as "When TOEI does something BAD, it's TOEI's fault". In which case... yeah, duh.
Besides, I'm not even talking about Toei changing things being bad right now. You're not arguing against anything I said with that.
Jiren's character isn't bad just because Toei followed Toriyama. His character is bad because they did nothing more than stick to a rough outline of him, and the execution of that character was really badly done.
If Toppo is the more interesting character of the two then they should be praised for doing that switcheroo and actually following Toriyama's blueprint, not criticized for doing the one thing fans keep wanting them to do when it turned out to be a bad idea.
No, actually, it's not the same thing at all. 'Idea' and 'execution' are too entirely different concepts. The execution is entirely Toeis, and the biggest difference between Toppo and Jiren aren't the ideas - neither of which are inherently superior to the other - but the execution, which Toei really failed on Jiren's front. Jiren is a poorly executed version of his character, making it an unfair comparison against a different idea with better execution.
Toriyama's outline was not that restrictive. Keep his backstory the same, he doesn't talk much. Hell, Hit doesn't talk much either yet he's a very good character. So yes, you can make decent characters.
The fact that Toriyama turned down one personality type for Jiren does not make his fault that Jiren turned out so poorly in the anime version. It's not like I blame Toei for the future Trunks arc ending, because that was Toriyama's idea that sucked. Here, the idea is basic enough not to limit Toei, and it's there fault that they didn't do anything good with it.
He's an honorable assassin and is effective.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Essentially, if you take the Tournament of Power's original trailer and Xenoverse 2's dialog into question, Toppo's personality was originally Jiren's, but Toriyama stopped them RIGHT before the saga started. It's also why Toppo doesn't talk about Justice all the time in the DBS manga.
edited 10th Mar '18 12:09:09 AM by Rinsankajugin
Also about him being stoic is a restriction its really not as there's a lot you can do with it.
The basic definition of stoic is rarely talk & don't show emotion on your face. You could easily make him a cold ham, his face remains unchanged but his movements are constantly full of flair & dynamism.
Hell they could have kept the original personality in him with just a little modification. Imagine how hilarious it be if Jiren makes those goofy ass poses with a straight face. It plunge him directly into being the comically serious.
Its like Batman in a sombrero & poncho with a mustache while holding salsa, its comedy gold.
edited 10th Mar '18 1:40:02 AM by slimcoder
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."The Mayor of Ciudad Juárez, Mexico, Armando Cabada
, has administrated a livestream event of Episode 130 within the Plaza de la MeXicanidad on March 17th (with a marathon of episode 126 to 129 to lead up). He seems to have some good connections with El Grande Padre
◊.
Similarily, the INDAJO note is hosting a livestream event in Jardín Libertad (Freedom Plaza), Colima in Mexico.
No riots, please.
Also, Kanzenshuu has the full interview
Including some notes that Herms initially overlooked or missed (like implying the "Sentai" theme and the Pride Troopers being a Toei thing, since Toriyama's designs of Jiren, Dsypo and Toppo concidentially wore matching uniforms without a purpose).
I love interviews like this, because it's safe to say that it debunks or confirms a lot of fan theories, and provides that all sides of the creative spectrum aren't as departed as they appear. Can't wait to see Toyotaro's portion of things down the road.
edited 10th Mar '18 12:02:44 PM by XMenMutant22

Damn they couldn't even do that right.
Jiren was failure from day zero.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."