At first I thought that it just says that the outline lists how they were eliminated, but then I looked again. If it says who Piccolo loses to, then it must say the same for the others as well.
It falls well into Toriyama's classic Big Guy, Little Guy dynamic, so that shouldn't be a shock (though Kale only is the big guy when she goes full Broly).
I can also kinda get why Toriyama wanted to scale things back a bit with Jiren (as someone else said, we've had big mouthed antagonists before) but I think it could have worked with him. Whatever the case, the manga, as many have stated, seem to be doing a bit of a better job with Jiren's personality than the anime, but that's because Jiren was supposed to be Toppo.
One Strip! One Strip!
Really? What made you think Toriyama was to blame? I admit, I'm probably harder on him than I am on Toei, but still I took it that they must have botched things based on how the manga went.
One Strip! One Strip!In hindsight this may explain what happened with that whole "Jiren was originally in the preliminary match instead of Toppo" thing.
This song needs more love.I don't think Toriyama's outline helped the situation but Toei failed to make the best or anything of it
Forever liveblogging the AvengersIts all on them for how lackadaisical Jiren turned out.
Its not that hard to add flair & personality to a character but they decided it was cooler for him to basically to do nothing but act like a statue for most of the tournament.
They picked a choice & it was the wrong choice so now they have to live with it.
That exactly.
edited 9th Mar '18 11:29:36 AM by slimcoder
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I imagine things would have been better if they'd stuck with their original idea for him (him having Toppo's personality) but I do agree they could have still made it work and failed at that.
One Strip! One Strip!He's not just heroic he's fucking Toppo there.
Which begs the question of how he's gonna be in Fighter Z & how Toppo is gonna act when he gets there;
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Its not that hard to add flair & personality to a character but they decided it was cooler for him to basically to do nothing but act like a statue for most of the tournament.
They picked a choice & it was the wrong choice so now they have to live with it.
Let me get this straight.
So what I got from this is:
"Toriyama didn't write an interesting backstory for a character until later!? Goddamit Toei, this is all your fault!"
I mean, yeah, it's partially their fault, but this is a rare case of it being Toriyama's fault, but we prefer to focus the blame on Toei when, for once, it sounds like they had the superior concept that would have made Jiren a more likable character.
edited 9th Mar '18 11:51:09 AM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Excellent. You've got it.
Yeah, it's kinda unfair. He gave them nothing, so they came up with something, then he only did something after they showed him what they were going to do.
But hey, screw Toei.
One Strip! One Strip!I'm blaming both of them
Toriyama's framework managed to be both vague and restrictive and he kept adding new restrictions as Toei tried to make something out of what he gave them
And they did a bad job writing in those less than ideal conditions
Who is most to blame can be argued but both Toriyama and Toei had a thumb in this pie
edited 9th Mar '18 12:09:58 PM by Bocaj
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
(2) Which is what Toriyama seemed to have planned for him. They're following what Toriyama gave them, "Jiren doesn't talk," and he only gave Jiren a backstory later.
They had a concept for Jiren since they weren't given anything. Toppo is a far more likable character than Jiren has been, thus, if anime!Toppo was originally what Toei wanted anime!Jiren to be, then that is the superior concept.
We always complain when Toei does it's own thing and congratulate Toyotaro for "sticking closer to what Toriyama wants." Here, they got Toriyama's input and stuck with it, instead of doing what they wanted to do. You're blaming Toei for ditching their idea and going with Toriyama's suggestion.
edited 9th Mar '18 12:13:53 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Basically, if Toei had been allowed to do what they want, we probably would have gotten God of destruction Toppo, but as Jiren, for the final boss of Super. That is much better than what we got. After seeing the negative reaction to Jiren, Toriyama probably let the manga change Jiren to be closer to the original personality for Jiren.
No matter what the timeline, Age 780 is a terrible year:
- Cell's timeline: Gohan dies at the hands of the androids
- Trunks' timeline: Gohan dies at the hands of the androids AND Goku Black meets Future Zamasu
- Goku Black's timeline: After skipping a year, Zamasu becomes Goku Black
- Goku's timeline: The Tournament of Power
"Toriyama didn't write an interesting backstory for a character until later!? Goddamit Toei, this is all your fault!"
I mean, yeah, it's partially their fault, but this is a rare case of it being Toriyama's fault, but we prefer to focus the blame on Toei when, for once, it sounds like they had the superior concept that would have made Jiren a more likable character.
So you got the entirely wrong message from this, then.
Toei created the flamboyant personality early on, and were corrected by Toriyama. At this time, he gave them Jiren's backstory. Then the anime staff re-used the flamboyant personality for Toppo.
What does this mean? All of this happened before Toppo debuted. It's not that Toriyama didn't give Jiren's backstory until 'Later', according to what we've been told, they knew this before they started using him. So they've had literally a year to do something interesting with Jiren, and they failed spectacularly. That is entirely their fault.
Toriyama's notes do not preclude Jiren from being an interesting character. Him being quiet/stoic and even his backstory could have been made interesting if handled well. That Toppo was more interesting than Jiren wasn't because Toei's personality was a superior concept, but because that they actually did SOMETHING with him instead of Jiren. It's not a fair comparison.
Toriyama's notes are bare bones, but that hasn't prevented them from adding their own ideas in other areas to flesh things out. If they fail to do so, that's on Toei. It's one of the reasons Resurrection F is so terrible - Toriyama turned in a very light script, and Toei essentially adapted it as is despite the fact that it was way too light to turn straight into a movie. Toriyama gave them a rough outline for Jiren's personality, and Toei said "good enough".
Technically, Toei didn't really run with the quiet/stoic character towards the end for Jiren since in the last several episodes he's talk quite a lot, especially during his fight with Goku and Vegeta. I'm not saying he stays silent for the whole thing, but him talking as much he did was kinda what spoiled character, especially since he insulted Toppo because of this.
It also doesn't help that his backstory was delivered terribly.
edited 9th Mar '18 3:44:02 PM by Palkia62

You can make a mute character interesting but that requires a lot of subtlety & nuance to his movements & personality to get right.
Even if he was just stoic you could have made him the "speaks little but says a lot" kind of guy.
You essentially have to out in the work to make him feel like a person.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."