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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80726: Mar 9th 2018 at 10:40:50 AM

You can make a mute character interesting but that requires a lot of subtlety & nuance to his movements & personality to get right.

Even if he was just stoic you could have made him the "speaks little but says a lot" kind of guy.

You essentially have to out in the work to make him feel like a person.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80727: Mar 9th 2018 at 10:52:44 AM

This is very interesting information. So, the order of U7 eliminations was always (and presumably will always, when the manga gets to it) be: Krillin is eliminated first, by Frost with a sneak attack. Tenshinhan is eliminated second, taking out an opponent (maybe Harmila, maybe it's not that specific) with him. Roshi is eliminated third, either indirectly by Frost or from pushing himself to the brink of death. Piccolo is eliminated fourth, by Damon. 18 is eliminated fifth, by saving 17 while fighting Anilaza. Gohan is eliminated sixth, by taking Dyspo down with him. 17 is eliminated seventh, by sacrificing himself against Jiren. Vegeta is eliminated eighth, in a last stand against Jiren.

At first I thought that it just says that the outline lists how they were eliminated, but then I looked again. If it says who Piccolo loses to, then it must say the same for the others as well.

Also interesting to get confirmation that Kale was designed by Toei to cash in on Broly while Caulifla was designed by Toriyama as a partner to Kale. Both of which I suspected.

It falls well into Toriyama's classic Big Guy, Little Guy dynamic, so that shouldn't be a shock (though Kale only is the big guy when she goes full Broly).

I can also kinda get why Toriyama wanted to scale things back a bit with Jiren (as someone else said, we've had big mouthed antagonists before) but I think it could have worked with him. Whatever the case, the manga, as many have stated, seem to be doing a bit of a better job with Jiren's personality than the anime, but that's because Jiren was supposed to be Toppo.

One Strip! One Strip!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80728: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:12:54 AM

Can you imagine Jiren dabbing?

BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#80729: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:16:03 AM

You know... I'm the only who who always figured Jiren being boring had to be Toriyama thing ? I just figured I'd give Toei the benefit of the doubt there.

35 year old white man.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80730: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:18:15 AM

[up]

Really? What made you think Toriyama was to blame? I admit, I'm probably harder on him than I am on Toei, but still I took it that they must have botched things based on how the manga went.

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#80731: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:20:20 AM

In hindsight this may explain what happened with that whole "Jiren was originally in the preliminary match instead of Toppo" thing.

This song needs more love.
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#80732: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:25:37 AM

[up][up]I guess in my head Toriyama's outline is just really small. I figured Toei would try to do more with him but they were busy with 80 + other characters. Toei staff : "if it's good enough for Toriyama it's good enough for us!"

35 year old white man.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80733: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:27:45 AM

I don't think Toriyama's outline helped the situation but Toei failed to make the best or anything of it

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80734: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:29:00 AM

Its all on them for how lackadaisical Jiren turned out.

Its not that hard to add flair & personality to a character but they decided it was cooler for him to basically to do nothing but act like a statue for most of the tournament.

They picked a choice & it was the wrong choice so now they have to live with it.

[up] That exactly. [tup]

edited 9th Mar '18 11:29:36 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80735: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:30:38 AM

I imagine things would have been better if they'd stuck with their original idea for him (him having Toppo's personality) but I do agree they could have still made it work and failed at that.

One Strip! One Strip!
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#80736: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:36:39 AM

I wonder if nobody told the Xenoverse team that. That Jiren does seem more heroic.

edited 9th Mar '18 11:36:55 AM by BigBlackBangBro

35 year old white man.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80737: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:37:49 AM

He's not just heroic he's fucking Toppo there.

Which begs the question of how he's gonna be in Fighter Z & how Toppo is gonna act when he gets there;

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#80738: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:44:02 AM

I don't think Toriyama's outline helped the situation but Toei failed to make the best or anything of it

Its all on them for how lackadaisical Jiren turned out.

Its not that hard to add flair & personality to a character but they decided it was cooler for him to basically to do nothing but act like a statue for most of the tournament.

They picked a choice & it was the wrong choice so now they have to live with it.

Let me get this straight.

Toriyama's original draft lacked any indication of Jiren's personality, so the anime staff planned on making a talkative character. However, when they suggested this to Toriyama, he replied that "Jiren is a character who doesn't speak!" It was at this point that Toriyama sent them the backstory that Jiren's parents and martial arts master were killed."

Toriyama's original draft lacked any indication of Jiren's personality

Toriyama

So what I got from this is:

"Toriyama didn't write an interesting backstory for a character until later!? Goddamit Toei, this is all your fault!"

I mean, yeah, it's partially their fault, but this is a rare case of it being Toriyama's fault, but we prefer to focus the blame on Toei when, for once, it sounds like they had the superior concept that would have made Jiren a more likable character.

edited 9th Mar '18 11:51:09 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#80739: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:50:22 AM

Seems he gives way more leeway to Toyotarou, then…

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80740: Mar 9th 2018 at 11:58:42 AM

I mean, yeah, it's partially their fault, but this is a rare case of it being Toriyama's fault, but we prefer to focus the blame on Toei when, for once, it sounds like they had the superior concept that would have made Jiren a more likable character.

Excellent. You've got it.grin

Yeah, it's kinda unfair. He gave them nothing, so they came up with something, then he only did something after they showed him what they were going to do.

But hey, screw Toei.

One Strip! One Strip!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#80741: Mar 9th 2018 at 12:01:23 PM

Er, what? It's entirely on Toei for making Jiren so bland. Even if they had a "superior concept", that doesn't change that Jiren effectively does nothing.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80742: Mar 9th 2018 at 12:07:48 PM

I'm blaming both of them

Toriyama's framework managed to be both vague and restrictive and he kept adding new restrictions as Toei tried to make something out of what he gave them

And they did a bad job writing in those less than ideal conditions

Who is most to blame can be argued but both Toriyama and Toei had a thumb in this pie

edited 9th Mar '18 12:09:58 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#80743: Mar 9th 2018 at 12:12:43 PM

[up] (2) Which is what Toriyama seemed to have planned for him. They're following what Toriyama gave them, "Jiren doesn't talk," and he only gave Jiren a backstory later.

They had a concept for Jiren since they weren't given anything. Toppo is a far more likable character than Jiren has been, thus, if anime!Toppo was originally what Toei wanted anime!Jiren to be, then that is the superior concept.

We always complain when Toei does it's own thing and congratulate Toyotaro for "sticking closer to what Toriyama wants." Here, they got Toriyama's input and stuck with it, instead of doing what they wanted to do. You're blaming Toei for ditching their idea and going with Toriyama's suggestion.

edited 9th Mar '18 12:13:53 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#80745: Mar 9th 2018 at 12:43:43 PM

Basically, if Toei had been allowed to do what they want, we probably would have gotten God of destruction Toppo, but as Jiren, for the final boss of Super. That is much better than what we got. After seeing the negative reaction to Jiren, Toriyama probably let the manga change Jiren to be closer to the original personality for Jiren.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#80746: Mar 9th 2018 at 12:49:49 PM

In the end were the ones suffering cause we have to endure the sheer inhuman torture that is Anime-Jiren.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80747: Mar 9th 2018 at 2:16:11 PM

How many times has Jiren said "It's over"?

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#80748: Mar 9th 2018 at 3:05:21 PM

No matter what the timeline, Age 780 is a terrible year:

  • Cell's timeline: Gohan dies at the hands of the androids
  • Trunks' timeline: Gohan dies at the hands of the androids AND Goku Black meets Future Zamasu
  • Goku Black's timeline: After skipping a year, Zamasu becomes Goku Black
  • Goku's timeline: The Tournament of Power

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#80749: Mar 9th 2018 at 3:11:47 PM

So what I got from this is:

"Toriyama didn't write an interesting backstory for a character until later!? Goddamit Toei, this is all your fault!"

I mean, yeah, it's partially their fault, but this is a rare case of it being Toriyama's fault, but we prefer to focus the blame on Toei when, for once, it sounds like they had the superior concept that would have made Jiren a more likable character.

So you got the entirely wrong message from this, then.

Toei created the flamboyant personality early on, and were corrected by Toriyama. At this time, he gave them Jiren's backstory. Then the anime staff re-used the flamboyant personality for Toppo.

What does this mean? All of this happened before Toppo debuted. It's not that Toriyama didn't give Jiren's backstory until 'Later', according to what we've been told, they knew this before they started using him. So they've had literally a year to do something interesting with Jiren, and they failed spectacularly. That is entirely their fault.

Toriyama's notes do not preclude Jiren from being an interesting character. Him being quiet/stoic and even his backstory could have been made interesting if handled well. That Toppo was more interesting than Jiren wasn't because Toei's personality was a superior concept, but because that they actually did SOMETHING with him instead of Jiren. It's not a fair comparison.

Toriyama's notes are bare bones, but that hasn't prevented them from adding their own ideas in other areas to flesh things out. If they fail to do so, that's on Toei. It's one of the reasons Resurrection F is so terrible - Toriyama turned in a very light script, and Toei essentially adapted it as is despite the fact that it was way too light to turn straight into a movie. Toriyama gave them a rough outline for Jiren's personality, and Toei said "good enough".

Palkia62 Since: Feb, 2018
#80750: Mar 9th 2018 at 3:43:47 PM

Technically, Toei didn't really run with the quiet/stoic character towards the end for Jiren since in the last several episodes he's talk quite a lot, especially during his fight with Goku and Vegeta. I'm not saying he stays silent for the whole thing, but him talking as much he did was kinda what spoiled character, especially since he insulted Toppo because of this.

It also doesn't help that his backstory was delivered terribly.

edited 9th Mar '18 3:44:02 PM by Palkia62


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