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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#80276: Mar 4th 2018 at 10:28:47 PM

[up][up] It was the side effect of making them powerful enough to grant any wish, not intentional.

The nameless name Kuan realized this after creating them, so he sealed them away.

Definitely like the original of the black star balls over the super balls. I don't really like the black star balls though, and wish they tried to tie it to the regular balls instead to try and set up the shadow dragons.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80277: Mar 4th 2018 at 11:06:47 PM

Instead they just had one last use of the regular balls before the Shadow Dragons got released.

The switch from using the black star balls to the regular balls confused kid randomness. They just sorta go away after Earth gets wished back again.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#80278: Mar 4th 2018 at 11:19:24 PM

They do, it's why Piccolo dies. He stays behind on the exploding Earth so that when he dies, the Black Star balls will be rendered inactive.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80279: Mar 4th 2018 at 11:40:46 PM

Memory is failing.

But seeing how the original Dragon Balls went "inert" after Piccoro fused with Kami, I'm not understanding why the Black Star Balls even still existed in the 1st place.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#80280: Mar 4th 2018 at 11:48:12 PM

They were creating before God and Piccolo Daimao split. So when God and Piccolo merged, that counted as the original creator being reformed.

Basically the opposite thing that happened to the original balls when God and Piccolo merged.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#80281: Mar 4th 2018 at 11:57:35 PM

Oh right, the Dragon Balls did come back when Kami was revived...memory failed again.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#80282: Mar 5th 2018 at 4:36:09 AM

The logistics of the dragon balls sure can be arbitrary!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80283: Mar 5th 2018 at 6:18:25 AM

I don't see the Super Dragon Balls having no limit as a problem since the original Dragon ball rules got so arbitrary over time as to why they couldn't solve problems and even then they still could. There are loads of ways they could be used to defeat the villains that the heroes just never go for.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
DS9guy Since: Jan, 2001
#80284: Mar 5th 2018 at 6:39:17 AM

edited 5th Mar '18 6:40:23 AM by DS9guy

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80285: Mar 5th 2018 at 6:41:13 AM

YES! MORE DBD! [lol]

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80286: Mar 5th 2018 at 6:57:03 AM

And people say that Goku was always the way he was in Super...

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80287: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:02:08 AM

The most unexpected thing I learned is that Wuxia is pronounced "Ucia".

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#80288: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:07:11 AM

[up] I learned that too. It is weird to pronounce "Wuxia" as "Ucia".

"Mai waifu."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80289: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:08:48 AM

I also quite liked his revised idea for the arc, as well as him pointing out how there's a problem not just with characters being stupid but characters being inconsistently stupid.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
DS9guy Since: Jan, 2001
#80290: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:13:33 AM

[up] This site does give the impression that the Cell Arc might as well be called “the one where characters keep making stupid decisions in order to keep the plot going”.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80291: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:17:40 AM

Well that's precisely what it is imo. For Cell to become Perfect Cell requires a laundry list of bad decisions.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#80292: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:20:20 AM

It doesn't really matter if they make bad decisions, it matters if said bad decisions are in-character and in this case I think the two worst ones (Vegeta's and Krillin's ) are.

edited 5th Mar '18 7:20:28 AM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#80293: Mar 5th 2018 at 7:23:43 AM

Even if they're in character it's still immensely frustrating to watch.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#80294: Mar 5th 2018 at 8:16:40 AM

Huh. Warning Gero ahead of time huh?

It's still kinda a dumb move, but I do think it's better than them doing absolutely nothing.

I imagine there are others who don't agree with it, but I think it could work better. T'is a shame Toriyama didn't consider it (or any other options beyond what he came up with).

And we've all discussed how heroic Goku is or isn't many times, so not much to say on that. I once joked that Evoution was a blessing in disguise since it brought the franchise back, but it's also led to the author himself flanderizing the character so I guess it's still shit.

In the end, Goku is what the plot needs him to be, and will really just do what Toriyama wants him to do.

edited 5th Mar '18 8:17:06 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#80295: Mar 5th 2018 at 8:33:12 AM

[up][up][up]I think a lot of people forget that last part. While I can get why it would start to wear on your nerves, I've noticed a lot of people seem to equate "character did stupid thing" with "bad writing", devoid of any context.

edited 5th Mar '18 8:33:53 AM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80296: Mar 5th 2018 at 8:41:05 AM

[up]x4 and [up] Vegeta's rep for being the dumbass mainly came about as a result of the Cell arc since he's generally pretty smart in the Freeza arc and doesn't care about using dirty tactics.

Yes, honour before reason would become an integral part of his character but it wasn't up until this point that it totally took over, so saying "it makes sense with his character" is speaking retroactively.

That is something that I've noticed happens a whole lot in DB, probably as a result of how old and long running it is.

edited 5th Mar '18 8:45:02 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#80297: Mar 5th 2018 at 8:52:49 AM

No, it isn't speaking retroactively. People's behavior can change with different circumstances as well. That's also something else a lot of people don't get. Vegeta's behavior on Namek makes sense for what he's trying to accomplish there. Vegeta's behavior during the Android Saga, also makes sense for the place he's at there.

edited 5th Mar '18 8:58:02 AM by LSBK

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#80298: Mar 5th 2018 at 8:54:07 AM

I miss the characters being willing to fight pragmatically.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#80299: Mar 5th 2018 at 9:00:10 AM

The reason it's frustrating to watch in the Cell saga is because it's basically a precursor to what would start being the norm. Characters making intentionally bad decisions to justify the villain getting stronger and almost beating them.

It was fine with Vegeta in the Android arc because him being an arrogant prick who thought he was better than everyone was definitely his character at the time, and he paid for it.

It starts getting frustrating though when you get things like Goku being retconned to actually being able to defeat Fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3, but chose not to.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#80300: Mar 5th 2018 at 9:01:17 AM

[up][up] Me too.

[up][up][up] But you can't say "it makes sense for his established character" because this is something new for Vegeta. Like, it would become the norm from Cell on but this is something that was introduced in the Cell arc and it's clearly introduced just to move the pieces into place so Cell could go Perfect.

Actually, in this entire arc Vegeta acts very differently to how we would expect him to, from not taking the chance to destroy Earth in revenge for his prior defeat (I guess he feared repercussions from Goku?) - but wait, why doesn't Vegeta try to collect the Dragonballs and wish for immortality? Hasn't that been one of his driving motivations since we met him? Yes, his primary goal from that would be so he could fight and kill the now dead Freeza, but wouldn't his attention now shift to being free to kill and plunder how he chose? Wouldn't he still need immortality, if nothing else so Goku couldn't stop him?

edited 5th Mar '18 9:04:00 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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