I doubt Toriyama has thought that far ahead even.
He just thought them being brothers would be cool and did it.
If I'm wrong, I'll admit it and all that, but he's not really much for thinking ahead that far most of the time. I'd say there were only a handful of occasions where he planned things out beyond the next chapter honestly.
Edit: So a random thought: when do you think the moment came when Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha overstayed their welcome.
Basically, when do you think they should have been written out of the story. When it comes down to it, outside of Tien's Hold the Line moment during the Cell games, they didn't really contribute much, and for all my complaints of Toriyama not really using them well when they were relevant, there must have been a point earlier in the series where they could have been cut out.
Where do you guys think that would have been?
edited 4th Mar '18 5:31:27 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!My theory is that Beerus, Champa, and Dyspo are among the last of their kind after theirs was one of the universes destroyed, their race wiped out for growing too powerful (a la the Saiyans, explaining why Beerus has a natural inclination to them) and the survivors were scattered among the remaining universes so they couldn't repopulate.
My various fanfics.![]()
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Honestly after the Freeza saga they should have just all retired, Yamcha should have gone back to baseball and Tien to start his martial arts school.
As cool as Tien's last stand is from a cool perspectivenote ... looking at it critically:
1. It's very hard to believe he could stymie someone with such an overwhelming power advantage even with the Shin-Kaioken 2. It makes Krillin's decision just a bit too idiotic 3. It has no real consequences, it just forces everyone to be dumbasses again, which is the big problem of the Cell saga.
Really, if it wasn't so cool it would be a Big Lipped Alligator moment.
edited 4th Mar '18 5:58:48 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Hey, burying Ten's actions in the Cell saga as a dumb, overhyped, inconsequential thing is Saiga's schtick.
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I have no desire to bury that moment. That being said, maybe if it'd happened a few arcs earlier, where you could more easily buy that he'd be able to keep down a stronger opponent since the gaps in power, while still large, aren't THAT large.
I totally agree with this which is why I wish some people didn't try so hard to shit on it. It's one of his few good moments, but just because others want Tien a bit too hard, this leads to other people going the other way and trying to take away one of the few acts in the Cell Saga that don't exerbate the situation purely to spite over-eagar Tien fans.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:16:22 PM by HandsomeRob
One Strip! One Strip!I am a Tien fan, and it happened, and I often laugh at people who say stuff like "oh the Shin-Kikoho must have some sort of disproportionate pushing power" to try and downplay what happened there. There have been much dumber things in Dragonball that don't get called out nearly as much.
But that doesn't change how weirdly inorganic it is in terms of structure. When you have a dramatic last stand like that it should mean something but because You Cannot Thwart Stage One is in full effect throughout the Cell Arc it just requires Krillin to be extra dumb to make up for it.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:21:13 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Senseless Sacrifice is a thing, except in this case Tien didn't die. The point being that it's not like things like that are unheard of, and moments like that don't necessarily have to have an effect on the situation to be powerful.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:22:03 PM by LSBK
The thing is, you have senseless sacrifices in the Saiyan Saga but they're done a lot better. They have wieght and gravity. In the Saiyan Saga it doesn't work because they're simply up against insurmountable odds.
Here, Tien does the noble, valiant thing... and it gets thrown away because of the stupidity of one of his comrades.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Basically, it accomplishes the following:
- It devalues the threat of Cell because he gets stonewalled by a... god, poor Tien isn't even a third stringer by this point, a fourth stringer.
- It makes Krillin look really, really selfish and does his character no favours. It makes a hard sell decision even harder.
The problem is less with the moment itself and more that it doesn't fit properly into the arc, an arc that is already creaking along as is.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:48:47 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't think they overstayed their welcome because it's not like they took up a great deal of screen time or damaged the story.
It is pretty silly that they still train for the Androids like that will matter, though. They should not have pretended that was going to be important. I think Toriyama was trying to do this with Ten's progression - he is in awe of SS Goku vs 19, he passes up the ROSAT because he knows it won't be enough, and he then parts ways with the group.
It still took way too long for him to realize how outclassed he was. He saw SS Goku vs Trunks already, so he shouldn't later be surprised, and yet he's among the ones who want to fight the Androids. What An Idiot.
He should have realized it when he sensed Freeza's ki and was told that wasn't even close to his full strength.
But that's just kind of whatever. I would prefer that he and Chaozu stayed dead and chose to continue training together in heaven, no longer trying to compete with Goku, just because I think that'd be a nice ending for him (and because I think the series would be better off without second resurrections).
I find energy attacks are inconsistent on whether they are a pushing, penetrating, or vaporizing force
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
x5 Well you need to have the resurrection plot since otherwise they're just going to Namek to resurrect Yamcha and Piccolo which is... like, they would still do it, but reviving 4 people sounds better than reviving two, one of whom is a walking joke and the other was until just recently Goku's blood enemy.
I just think they should have been moved off the board, since I'm a big fan of no wasted space, in the same way that Yajirobe, Oolong, Puar etc. stopped mattering and no one minded.
x3 It's the difference between going "oh, oh Krillin" and "DAMMIT KRILLIN". Like, if we remove Tien, then it's sort of buyable as a romantic "I just can't do it" moment. But Tien's intervention makes everything super tense, even more than before. I guess it's just a "where do you draw the line" thing.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:36:15 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
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And? That things work out eventually doesn't mean we aren't supposed to think that decision on his part wasn't selfish or even right.
Stories need a certain amount of wasted space to be interesting. Some things have too much cough*Hunter X Hunter*cough, but everything being strictly plot related often just feels really off, and stale.
edited 4th Mar '18 6:36:00 PM by LSBK
By wasted space I mean Yamcha and Tien contribute nothing. They're not being used for interesting interactions, they contribute basically nothing to combat except Yamcha being the guy Gero nearly kills (which does nothing to build Gero up because it's fucking Yamcha) and this Tien moment, which is problematic for reasons I have mentioned.
For all the shade you can try to throw at Hunter X Hunter even the seemingly useless characters usually have a tiny purpose even if it's to try and add flesh to the worldbuilding.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

@RJ-19-CLOVIS-93: Well, vermouth is Italian in origin and clowns originate from the Rome area?
edited 4th Mar '18 4:32:28 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!