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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#79276: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:28:07 PM

Well the whole thing there was "Babadi and his minions are so outclassed here it's kind of funny". Props should be given for doing it in a somewhat unique way instead of just punching them good.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79277: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:28:56 PM

Yeah Yakon's the only example of an enemy Goku killed by overfeeding

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#79278: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:31:01 PM

I suppose the Yakon fight demonstrated how out of their league the villains were this time around. V Egeta did it with power, and Goku with style.

Furthermore, Solar Flare may be blinding, but the 1 - 2 chang in light seems to be based on power - Yakon eating light already isn't scientific, I wouldn't assume it is measured by brightness when they act like there is real 'weight' behind it.

Meh. I guess it's just one of those things that isn't meant to be thought over very much.

...I'm gonna find some more Jojo / DBZ crossovers. Change the topic before we get bogged down again.

I shall return at first light! Rob....AWAY!

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#79279: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:31:47 PM

Yeah it really wasn't a serious fight.

Just a piss-take so Shin could go awe-struck at how strong the Z-Fighters are.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79280: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:32:46 PM

The ol' Toriyama reaction gag.

Also, as wasted a character as Shin is, he's actually got a pretty good moment in the Super manga.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79281: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:32:47 PM

Sigil, your issues with Dragon Ball are less issues with the series and more your own distaste for how it handles it's battles and power discrepancies.

Dragon Ball is not, and never will be, a series that relies on tactics and strategies. The strongest fighter wins, nothing more, nothing less. So instead of trying to fit the series in how you would like for things to play out, focus on what's actually in the series and how it does things.

Despite how you may feel, fights that come down to a simple "X is stronger than y" can be interesting too.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79282: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:34:19 PM

Don't say that, I've read early Dragonball. I mean, it was hardly Jo Jo, but there was still some quite tricky stuff going on there, albiet in gag form.

"Despite how you may feel, fights that come down to a simple "X is stronger than y" can be interesting too."

They can be, so long as they aren't all we've got. And in later Dragonball, it's just the same thing over and over - and it's pretty much all fights by that point, great Saiyaman aside. Super is just the skin coming off the apple that had rotted by the Cell saga.

edited 19th Feb '18 6:36:01 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79283: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:35:37 PM

DB's level of strategy didnt really change. Much of early DB is just Goku brute forcing things

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79284: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:36:55 PM

Some of the fights were, especially against mooks. Not denying that. But when a fight took centre stage, it was mechanically interesting.

But again, it wasn't me who brought this topic up. Someone else pointed out how in Super they got to a point where "stronger" was really hard to buy and suggested that abilities take the forefront. If you don't agree with them then fine, but then what we get is Jiren.

edited 19th Feb '18 6:38:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#79285: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:37:23 PM

I swear this thread is just a yo-yo.

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79286: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:38:17 PM

yea, Dragon Ball is basically "everyone fails and then Goku makes it look easy"

And if you're getting worn out on Dragon Ball's fights, then *shrug*. But I don't see much issue with how it does fights no more than I have issue with how other series does their fights.

Like, because Jojo relies on a lot of nonsensical strategies and oddities, does that get tiring after a while too?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79287: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:40:20 PM

Actually, it's hilarious. Vegeta has just been defeated. Goku's allies lie broken. Goku has just had a heartfelt moment where he's remembered all his friends and pushed back against Jiren, but it wasn't enough. Now Goku is about to unlock a legendary form everyone is shocked to see and his locks will begin to glow with power.

7 arcs later and we're back to the Freeza saga.

Also, are you suggesting that because Jo Jo makes a huge effort to keep things fresh and interesting I should be as frustrated with it as I am with Dragonball? (Also, most of the strategies aren't nonsensical. I'm not going to say none of them are, but most of them aren't)

edited 19th Feb '18 6:42:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79288: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:41:14 PM

[up][up] GOD YES

Also the faults with Jiren really have nothing to do with interesting abilities/fight style

And I disagree with focus fights in DB all being mechanically interesting, or especially more so than later fights. Early DB doesn't have very well explored mechanics

edited 19th Feb '18 6:41:30 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79289: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:42:52 PM

I mean what has this arc been but nothing call backs to Z :V

Jiren's issues isn't that he's simply strong, it's that his strength is very undefined. We don't know how he got that strong, or what sort of training he did to attain that power. Its not that he's just strong, he's strong "just because".

I mean Toppo at least was established as going through Go D training, and Dypso's species just seem naturally built to speed. But Jiren...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#79290: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:43:20 PM

Anything can become uninteresting if done enough. I can understand wanting more variety from fights, but just because you like something in one thing, doesn't mean it would be good in something else.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79291: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:43:28 PM

Late DB doesn't have explored mechanics either. Half of the stuff we know comes from guidebooks.

How much stronger is Goku's kamehameha than one of his punches, for instance? How much stamina does it use?

Also, the quickest route to becoming boring is repeating yourself. Look at any of these long running series, and the most common trend you'll see is this: when they start repeating themselves, they start to go downhill. Bleach, with the Arrancar arc. Naruto with all the big bads having the same motivation after the Pain arc. Dragonball after the Freeza arc, and so on.

edited 19th Feb '18 6:46:19 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79292: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:46:51 PM

You can tell by how much damage it does lol. If Goku does no damage with his fists, but does with a Kamehama, or if he's visibility tired after doing one or the other.

Its self explanatory.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79293: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:49:10 PM

Then I don't see how that's any different at all to early Dragonball in terms of exploring mechanics.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#79294: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:50:54 PM

Chances are how they explain how Jiren got so strong will be boring.

Like what be cool is some immense spectacle shit like he endured an exploding sun, blew up a planets core, punched out a black hole, invaded Hell to kill millions of demons with his bare hands, or lifted a super-giant.

Or his hate gave him strength. How he hates the evil-doer for killing everyone he's loved, how he hates his parents for leaving him alone, how he hates his master for dying on him, how he hates his former classmates for failing him, how he hates the universe for sucking so hard, how he hates himself for being so weak. He just hates & hates & hates so much that his hatred reached equilibrium and he finds his hatred has become his infinite power but he no longer can feel anything cause his hatred & general emotions has completely run dry.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#79295: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:51:56 PM

Why does Jiren dislike everything?

He just do...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79296: Feb 19th 2018 at 6:58:22 PM

Later DB has more explained mechanics by virtue of find its tone and having used what it had to be more comfortable with it

Ki and special techniques are very inconsitant early on, whereas later their usage is more consistent and you have more examples to get an idea oh how stuff works. Plus a lot of later concepts get more explanation and referenced more, allowing their impact to be more readily understood.

You don't need to be able to put numbers to damage or stamina usage to have mechanics.

The REALLLY early stuff is too silly to have mechanics, because it's gag based

Edit: also all your examples are subjective and I don't even think the commonly perceived flaws are all related to repetition. It's also not a great argument to say 'look at these for example' to people who don't necessarily agree with that viewpoint for each series.

edited 19th Feb '18 7:00:23 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79297: Feb 19th 2018 at 7:04:11 PM

Yea, Ki wasn't really fleshed out until around Namek when characters started were able to sense it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#79298: Feb 19th 2018 at 7:05:23 PM

Characters were able to sense Ki by the 23rd Budokai...

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#79299: Feb 19th 2018 at 7:06:20 PM

Not all of them, it was basically just Karrot, Roshi, Ten, and Piccoro...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79300: Feb 19th 2018 at 7:09:33 PM

Ten could do it in the Daimao arc

Goku could do it at least after the water power up

Roshi and Kuririn might've been sensing Ten's ki as he prepared the Kikoho

And Goku sensed 'presences' in the first arc

See? Early DB, unclear


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