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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79051: Feb 18th 2018 at 3:55:19 AM

I get what they were going for with this episode, and on a conceptual level, I'd say it's good. Probably the most positive character moment Vegeta's gotten.

But fuck man, they did this twice already. I don't care much effort they try to ring emotion out of this moment, they've played this same "last stand" trope two times in a row already with Vegeta, so I'm going to care as much about a third time.

IF they didn't dedicate two whole episodes before to it, I might've resonated with it a bit better.

EDIT: Ok, nobody can convince that Toyo and Toriyama aren't reading the forums when making these episodes now...

edited 18th Feb '18 4:15:45 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#79052: Feb 18th 2018 at 4:29:01 AM

Okay, not gonna lie, Ultra Instinct is just so damn cool, I squee a little every time Goku uses it.

But man, how many flashbacks did Vegeta had this arc?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#79053: Feb 18th 2018 at 4:51:02 AM

[up][up] anti joke chicken

the fan animations recycled animation from the series

we already knew Super copied this without shame

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#79054: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:15:59 AM

But fuck man, they did this twice already. I don't care much effort they try to ring emotion out of this moment, they've played this same "last stand" trope two times in a row already with Vegeta, so I'm going to care as much about a third time.

Twice? I'm not sure what you mean. I can see how this could resemble Vegeta blowing himself up on Toppo, even if I think it was handled very differently, but are you saying Vegeta's Fiiiiiinal Flaaaash on Jiren was the other moment? That wasn't the same thing at all.

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#79055: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:25:10 AM

I liked the episode fine. I am just not a fan of how Jiren is being characterized. Cause while how he is being characterized is fine for a villain. It makes little sense for a Hero let alone one thats part of a team.

I have no idea why Jiren is part of the Pride Troopers, or why Toppo claimed they were sworn friends. In fact I don't think Jiren and Toppo have had one conversation.

edited 18th Feb '18 6:28:03 AM by Envyus

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#79056: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:26:29 AM

Informed relationship...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79057: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:26:30 AM

>Vegeta rants about pride.

>Jiren/Toppo say it's useless.

>Vegeta takes a beating.

Sure looks the same to me. No, all three moments aren't the same, but they all follow the same beats of "Vegeta fights a strong opponent while never giving up" and ya know, you can only see that so many times before it gets boring.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#79058: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:28:12 AM

It just does not make sense with how the Anime is portraying Jiren. It makes more sense with his portrayal in the manga, but I don't get why the personalty is so different between the two. None of the other characters were really portrayed differently personalty wise between the Anime and Manga. Unless Toriyama gave them nothing other then Jiren's design and nothing else about him.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#79059: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:31:08 AM

That's redundant...and maybe that IS all Tori-bot gave them about Jiren.

edited 18th Feb '18 6:31:35 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#79060: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:41:25 AM

Mmm, shouldn't the manga be about to drop any day now?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#79061: Feb 18th 2018 at 6:46:42 AM

It's already leaking, the full chapter should be out this week.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#79062: Feb 18th 2018 at 8:18:27 AM

To paraphrase this here gentleman, Larfreeze.

What really chafes on Jiren is there actually are two distinct characterizations, both of which, if they were stuck to, would be interesting. If he really was just a nice, no kill guy, who refused to eliminate people because he hated the idea of destroying dimensions, who was spending his time meditating because he was watching U11 for threats (Someone mentioned this in the thread as an idea and it was a loving fantastic one), who was only strong but not really looking for strength but had some other goal, then it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost, because he'd have shown himself to be so different from Goku as to be a good foil to him. If he had won it would have been amazing, and it wouldn't have been surprising to have him wish back all the universes. That guy would have been cool, because it would have been so radically different from a normal DBZ antagonist, or even Goku himself. If he started out and clearly was a guy who was hung up on being strong, who had this team of dudes who called him 'Friend' and who looked up to him and the truth was he didn't really care about them, they just thought he did and he didn't care enough to correct them, who looked down on everyone and only wanted to get stronger, he's boring and generic, but he's at least consistent. He's a generic bad guy for Goku to beat, so Goku can be the hero, no matter how the arc shaped up, because Jiren himself could be shown to be selfish and a dickbag, only in it for himself. This guy would be fine, because hey, it's a tournament arc and it's ending the series, give Goku a decent victory, let him end as a hero, don't worry too much about it. Instead they spent like 30 episodes on the first one while acting like there was some big secret while pretty heavily implying that it was gonna be that Jiren finds this all distasteful, then they swerve insanely hard to smash into the second one, and the whole thing catches fire and now it's all terrible. It's clear this whole thing is not consistent and had been changed; even Jiren's backstory seems like it was made for something else originally; it's a standard bad backstory that seems intending to go 'look, he's just like Goku except he didn't have the Dragonballs to revive his friends', and then Android 17 goes 'lol loser stop being so hung up on reviving people from the dead' while everyone from U7 has been revived at least once, and that's it.

I am starting to think that reason Jiren is all of sudden a villain is because it is there to make Goku look even better by comparison. I will admit that I might be assassinating both characters but that is what it looks like to me.

"Mai waifu."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#79063: Feb 18th 2018 at 8:55:15 AM

Another evidence that Anime-Jiren is different from Manga-Jiren is when Vegeta said he has never cared for anybody & judging by Jiren's reaction its true.

Compere this to the guy who outright says if anything were to happen to his universe he'd immediately drop the tournament even in the middle of it to help whoever's in trouble.

The difference in characterization between the 2 is staggering & bizarre.

edited 18th Feb '18 9:02:28 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#79064: Feb 18th 2018 at 9:01:29 AM

Yeah. What the hell happened here?

Did Toriyama not give them any info on Jiren's characterization at all?

I mean, there had to have been something right?

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#79065: Feb 18th 2018 at 9:11:11 AM

It is pretty much a given, Vegeta is going to job to make Goku's fight to look better by comparison but I understand your frustration.

That's not what happened. Vegeta didn't get beaten up to make Goku's fight look better, Vegeta got beaten up because he's way weaker than his opponent and thus it was basically inevitable. Jiren's strength had already been established. Seriously, just because a character you like loses, doesn't mean they're jobbing.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#79066: Feb 18th 2018 at 9:31:46 AM

Another contradiction or oddity is his rescue of Dyspo.

All of what we'eve seen paints Jiren as an extremely cruel & uncaring person to the point of being an outright sadist so why would he waste his time helping a person he doesn't give a rats ass about or focus his strength enough to only hit Maji-Kayo instead of apathetically both of them?

edited 18th Feb '18 10:58:00 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#79067: Feb 18th 2018 at 9:56:42 AM

Yeah. I'm utterly baffled by the lack of direction with Jiren.

I'm wondering if Jiren plans to use the Super Dragonballs to finally find the asshole who killed his parents...or maybe undo what happened period.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#79068: Feb 18th 2018 at 10:22:55 AM

"Super Dragon... grant me my wish! Give me a personality!"

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#79069: Feb 18th 2018 at 11:21:37 AM

[up][up]

What a massive waste of the Super Dragon Balls that would be. These things can grant you any wish you want. Any.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#79070: Feb 18th 2018 at 11:22:11 AM

i would wish for a boat

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#79071: Feb 18th 2018 at 11:23:35 AM

I'M ON A BOAT!!!!!!!

edited 18th Feb '18 11:23:48 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#79072: Feb 18th 2018 at 11:51:03 AM

I would wish for an eternally regenerating slice of pizza

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#79073: Feb 18th 2018 at 12:07:56 PM

I would wish for a button that would create muffins every time I press it. A Muffin Button if you will.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#79074: Feb 18th 2018 at 12:13:40 PM

It makes more sense with his portrayal in the manga, but I don't get why the personalty is so different between the two.

Manga Jiren's thing is, "I will defend my universe at all cost, but I won't fight in the tournament that will allow me to prevent its erasure, but I will fight because of my own selfish desire, but I will abandon both that desire and the only chance I have at saving my universe in order to deal with any minor threat."

Like, what the actual f'ck.

Super the Manga and Super the Anime work better in tandem:

  • Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan God
    • Manga: Blue wastes a Super Meter, but is more effective, and God makes more appearances.
    • Anime: Blue is goddamned useless and Kaioken Blue quickly overshadows it, being more visually appealing.
    • Solution: Give Vegeta the mastered form (instead of Shiny Super Saiyan Blue) and let Goku keep abusing Kaioken Blue. Let Blue be useful against Hit and have Goku use Kaioken Blue against Black, since Black wouldn't see that coming and it would tip what is essentially a mirror match in Goku's favor. Let Vegeta master Blue so that A) he has a notch on his belt, and B) it mirrors how Goku spent time in the ROSAT and mastered Super Saiyan.
  • Jiren the Grey
    • Manga: Jiren's decision to return to his universe in case anything comes up is stupid. But his dedication to fighting intergalactic crime is a more powerful characterization.
    • Anime: Jiren just kind of shows up, tells Goku to shove off, beats the f'ckity f'ck out of a few people, poses, flexes his glutes, and wastes everyone's time half-assing the whole tournament with his and the lives of millions literally on the line. Also, his backstory is weak and only tells us cliffnotes about how he had some mentor who died to some great evil and how Jiren trained to never let that happen again, without actually telling us what became of this evil or how Jiren actually got strong. Apparently he just fired more Kamehameha's at the ocean than Goku did and wore heavier weights than Vegeta did.
    • Solution: Keep both backstory and Jiren's manga personality, but introduce them earlier. Jiren was motivated by the death of his master, being a parallel to Goku in that, "he's Goku if Goku couldn't revive his friends." Sometime later Jiren defeated his "Freeza" and just kept leveling up. And now, in contrast to Goku, he's dedicated to things that lie beyond getting stronger and stronger, because he's already stupidly f'cking strong. He still promises to abandon the tournament if anything happens in Universe 2.

edited 18th Feb '18 12:30:09 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#79075: Feb 18th 2018 at 12:32:56 PM

So I've been sitting on my thoughts of the episode. For the most part, I actually liked it. Of the three "last stands" that Vegeta has made over the course of the past 5 or so episodes, I think this was the "best" one. Of course, the problem there lies in the fact that he's done that same exact scenario three times now, twice with Jiren to boot.

I did get a laugh at Freeza getting included in Goku's Power of Friendship powerup.


I don't have issue with Jiren's new characterization perse, but I think GAP's post highlights the big issue. The major failing with Jiren is Toei tried to keep his character a mystery for far too long in the tournament. A very easy fix to all of this is just make Jiren a more overtly antagonistic Aloof Ally to the Pride Troopers right out the gate. Rather than follow Toppo's lead and help his teammates out, Jiren decides to go off on his own and meditate because he believes he's above all the trash in the ring.

edited 18th Feb '18 12:37:34 PM by Lionheart0


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