@ Moth That wasn't what I meant at all. We knew 20 eps ago what it would take to even reach Jiren equally. Oh Goku and Vegeta are teaming up maybe they can win, oh 17 is teaming up with them too, oh Vegeta is fighting Jiren, Goku is fighting Jiren. All of that is just padding out time because we know nothing will have any effect on Jiren until Goku uses UI again.
edited 17th Feb '18 9:59:12 PM by Jedi1113
So, Dark Dragon Ball 100% Max Full Power Beyond Legendary Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Rose 4 Rage Time Breaker Golden Mystic Majin Meta-Buugita(Buu+Vegito + Gogeta) Blanco (completado) Kaio-Ken x20 remixed 2.5 HD remastered 345/7(scouter) with Namekians absorbed and Hakai energy wielding sword of hope featuring Dante and Knuckes?
What separates that from any other time Goku has been training/healing/planning to train while others fought the arc's primary antagonists?
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!I enjoyed this episode. Vegeta's Last Stand was well-done, albeit a copy of his Last Stand against Kid Buu (at least it was a different type of Last Stand than the two he had in the last few episodes, and ended differently), and I liked how Jiren seemed to be taking pity on him by pulling his punches a little (probably just so that he doesn't die, but still). Vegeta's bluster here definitely felt forced and fake, but from an in-universe perspective, like Vegeta absolutely knows he can't win but he's trying to delude himself that he can to push himself to keep going. Jiren did try to knock Vegeta off a few times, Vegeta just kept catching on rocks and coming back. I liked how Vegeta's Final Flash was kind of pathetic and small, it served to highlight how drained he was and that it really was his "Final" Flash.
I liked how Vegeta gave Goku a tiny bit of power, Goku turned Blue... and then he got beaten out of it in less than a minute of real time, which must be like 3 seconds in-universe. I also actually really liked that Goku got his own Last Stand in base since that's something Goku's never really done, it's usually Vegeta. It hurt a bit seeing both of them get pummeled so thoroughly, with Vegeta even thinking that it feels like his body is breaking (and I don't give Super flak for not showing any gore, they're limited by what they're allowed to get away with because of their timeslot and target demographic, that's not the writers' fault). I also really like the hinting at Goku and Jiren having an ideological conflict about their respective perspectives on friends and trust, because emotional investment is sorely needed in this climax. Ultra Instinct is hype as always. I found it interesting that apparently, Whis and the other gods weren't expecting Goku to use Ultra Instinct again. I guess they just wrote it off as a fluke and expected this to really be the end.
Yeah, this episode really could've been told in a lot less time and it felt a bit lacking in diverse content, but one could argue that it feeling dragged out was the point. I wouldn't, this episode should've been the Last Stand episode, with 17 dying here instead of in the last episode. Make this really feel gut-wrenching, like it's the lowest point in the franchise. 17 dies and his sacrifice means nothing because the Saiyans weren't able to recharge enough, Vegeta and Goku get beaten to within an inch of their lives and Vegeta's eliminated giving Goku his last shred of ki which still accomplishes nothing. Finally, when all seems hopeless, Ultra Instinct. Basically what they already did, but having 17 die here and cutting Goku and Vegeta's Last Stands a little shorter.
No-one in-universe cares about the time limit, and I suspect they won't until the last minute of the tournament, so I don't really feel a need to care either at the moment. The time limit is just not important to this, or any previous episodes, and I don't think it needs to be since Freeza Time is solidly in effect. It'll probably be important in the last episode, but not before then.
NEP: Fight looks dope. Not much else to say.
Saw this on another site and I’m gonna post it here because it’s said way better than I ever could:
If he really was just a nice, no kill guy, who refused to eliminate people because he hated the idea of destroying dimensions, who was spending his time meditating because he was watching U11 for threats (Someone mentioned this in the thread as an idea and it was a loving fantastic one), who was only strong but not really looking for strength but had some other goal, then it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost, because he'd have shown himself to be so different from Goku as to be a good foil to him. If he had won it would have been amazing, and it wouldn't have been surprising to have him wish back all the universes. That guy would have been cool, because it would have been so radically different from a normal DBZ antagonist, or even Goku himself.
If he started out and clearly was a guy who was hung up on being strong, who had this team of dudes who called him 'Friend' and who looked up to him and the truth was he didn't really care about them, they just thought he did and he didn't care enough to correct them, who looked down on everyone and only wanted to get stronger, he's boring and generic, but he's at least consistent. He's a generic bad guy for Goku to beat, so Goku can be the hero, no matter how the arc shaped up, because Jiren himself could be shown to be selfish and a dickbag, only in it for himself. This guy would be fine, because hey, it's a tournament arc and it's ending the series, give Goku a decent victory, let him end as a hero, don't worry too much about it.
Instead they spent like 30 episodes on the first one while acting like there was some big secret while pretty heavily implying that it was gonna be that Jiren finds this all distasteful, then they swerve insanely hard to smash into the second one, and the whole thing catches fire and now it's all terrible. It's clear this whole thing is not consistent and had been changed; even Jiren's backstory seems like it was made for something else originally; it's a standard bad backstory that seems intending to go 'look, he's just like Goku except he didn't have the Dragonballs to revive his friends', and then Android 17 goes 'lol loser stop being so hung up on reviving people from the dead' while everyone from U7 has been revived at least once, and that's it.
Well that was the 1st bad episode of this year for me.
I wanted to like Bulma's last message to be the highlight but God Damn 10 minutes of Vegeta getting his ass kicked. Well shit it can't DBZ without happening before we shifting the spotlight to Goku again.
Ultra Instinct is back & I couldn't care less.
This time slot was appropriate for the first three arcs of Super, but it's worked against the two most recent ones. I love these two arcs on a conceptual level, and I think the execution is great, but they would've benefitted from a move to a more mature timeslot and audience, as the manga has demonstrated superiority in this category. Unfortunately, that's not something that is physically possible in the world of television, especially for a week-to-week long runner. Toriyama decides how these arcs go, and by extension their tone, so the anime staff's hands are tied. They have to write for really dark arcs with minimal blood because of their timeslot, and I think they've done a pretty good job adapting to such a predicament.
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Is there any particular reason the spotlight should be on Vegeta? Would that serve any purpose?
What benefit are you talking about? Because just going from that comment (and almost everything else you've had to say) I'm not sure how you think a different time slot would change anything. Plus, none of that really excuses the issues that Saiga mentioned, I think.
It is if you don't want the fights to be neutered down wash fests.
DBZ wasn't really that gory but at least you knew when the characters were really hurt.
We didn't need him getting beaten up at all. Jiren should have just thrown him out of the ring & be done with it. His beat-down was completely unnecessary.
edited 18th Feb '18 12:25:38 AM by slimcoder
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."I don't think gore is needed either. They don't need to show blood to be more "mature" they just need to have the characters behave more appropriately for the setting. If they don't want to have someone like, say, Goku, do such, then they should actually make that a plot point and point of potential development for him. But they didn't do that.
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Goku's gotten his ass clicked plenty here. Vegeta winning would make much less sense, and be much worse for the story. Hence I don't want it to happen. Frankly, I think they've been treating Vegeta better than Goku here. Why the hell could he keep going, but Goku couldn't until Vegeta gave him what little energy he had left?
edited 18th Feb '18 12:27:56 AM by LSBK
Watching the Geekdom video has actually improved my view of this episode. Before I thought it was just good, but no, this is a damn fantastic episode. One of the best in the recent weeks. Vegeta and Goku both got top-tier character writing and Goku's contrast with Jiren is fantastic. It's a real shame Super is ending soon because it's getting really good.

It didn't have to be meaningless, but the way they went about things does make it seem pretty meaningless.