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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#78776: Feb 16th 2018 at 10:24:13 AM

You mean the cast that was constantly expanding?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#78777: Feb 16th 2018 at 10:27:06 AM

If Toriyama hadn't gone with the Saiyans, I assume he would've delved more into the more mystical and folklore-esque leanings of the series that were stronger at the time.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#78778: Feb 16th 2018 at 10:28:20 AM

I mean, it wasn't unpopular. It just wasn't a giant, overflowing success. It was still popular.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#78779: Feb 16th 2018 at 11:10:00 AM

Also, the Saiyans weren't the point where the series started shifting towards being arc-centric. It was already moving in that direction well before Raditz.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#78780: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:06:03 PM

Moving into the Saiyan arc was when Toriyama actually thought the series might end (that's why he gave the 'Z' title to Toei, to respresent it ending soon).

Without the explosive popularity of the Saiyan arc, the series could very well have just ended not long after that rebranding, because that's what Toriyama expected.

It's actually fascinating reading about DB's history and finding out that despite being popular enough to last 16 volumes and have a long running anime, the series wasn't actually that popular by current standards.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#78781: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:26:11 PM

I've checked the timeline, and Dr Gero died on the same day Cell first showed up to Piccolo, being May 12. He was mere hours from the opportunity of meeting his creator, in his most program-driven form

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#78782: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:38:57 PM

[up][up]

"Current standards" being massive multimedia franchises decided by production committees, which probably include concerts, signings, print media spinoffs, and other stuff. ^^;

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#78783: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:48:19 PM

So...how often have characters in Dragonball won fights through methods beyond being stronger than the other guy?

I mean, there's Goku killing Buyon by breaking a wall, freezing him solid, and then kicking him to pieces.

There's Upa and Puar beating Muay Thai Vampire man by making him eat Porcupine quills, standing the shape of a cross, and breathing garlic on him.

Technically the final fight with Vegeta was won via team work, with everyone (who was still alive) pitching in in some way: Goku did the bulk of the heavy lifting and damaged Vegeta with the Kaioken; Yajirobe cut off his tail, Gohan distracted him while Krillin fired off the Spirit bomb, and then of course, there's the Monkey Body Slam.

Oh right: I suppose the final fight with Buu counts as well. It was the strength of everyone on earth that won them that fight, with other characters once again pitching in to make it possible.

Anyone have some other examples?

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#78784: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:48:21 PM

I wonder how that meeting would have gone

And whether Cell would have been another of his creations to turn on him

edited 16th Feb '18 2:48:33 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#78785: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:49:57 PM

[up] <Shakes fist at Bocaj>

Damn you for pushing the thread to the next page. Now I gotta repost this:

So...how often have characters in Dragonball won fights through methods beyond being stronger than the other guy?

I mean, there's Goku killing Buyon by breaking a wall, freezing him solid, and then kicking him to pieces.

There's Upa and Puar beating Muay Thai Vampire man by making him eat Porcupine quills, standing the shape of a cross, and breathing garlic on him.

Technically the final fight with Vegeta was won via team work, with everyone (who was still alive) pitching in in some way: Goku did the bulk of the heavy lifting and damaged Vegeta with the Kaioken; Yajirobe cut off his tail, Gohan distracted him while Krillin fired off the Spirit bomb, and then of course, there's the Monkey Body Slam.

Oh right: I suppose the final fight with Buu counts as well. It was the strength of everyone on earth that won them that fight, with other characters once again pitching in to make it possible.

Anyone have some other examples?

edited 16th Feb '18 2:50:29 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#78786: Feb 16th 2018 at 2:52:31 PM

Vegeta defeating Zarbon; from what I understand he was still weaker than Zarbon in terms of power level but won via dirty tactics.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#78787: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:00:27 PM

I thought he got his ass kicked, got shoved into the... POD, got a zenkai boost to be stronger than Zarbon

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#78788: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:06:29 PM

I heard he was still weaker than Zarbon even with the zenkai boost, but somebody more well-versed can back me up or disprove me.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#78789: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:06:54 PM

He got stronger, but didn't reveal that until he'd already weakened Zarbon enough for his power-up to be enough to finish it.

He says to himself, Zarbon's power has now fallen enough for Vegeta to finish off. It also shows how ki blast spam ISN'T useless like the fandom thinks, because that allowed Vegeta to overcome a more powerful opponent.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#78790: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:07:44 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that was my reading as well. It wasn't even all that difficult after the healing. Like, one punch and an energy blast to the abdomen was all it took.

Saiyans are bullshit.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:08:06 PM by Kayeka

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#78792: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:09:06 PM

[up][up] That's not true at all. He punched Zarbon in the back, then pelted Zarbon with many blasts until he was weak enough to do the gut punch-ki blast finisher.

[up] Most uses of it in the manga have had it be effective.

Vegeta uses it to overwhelm Gohan (admittedly, he has a power advantage there), he heavily damages Zarbon, Goku tries to block his own but is overwhelmed, Goku is able to hurt the stronger Perfect Cell and force him to expend a lot of energy on a barrier, Vegeta is able to pressure Super Perfect Cell until Vegeta runs out of energy and when using it against Pure Boo he's able to keep him pinned until Pure Boo breaks off and regenerates behind Vegeta to escape the blasts.

edited 16th Feb '18 3:18:01 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#78793: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:12:03 PM

Me thinks someone only remembers the abridged cut...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#78795: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:29:15 PM

Here's Tenkaichi 4 (Super)

Some of da new models ain't so positive, and it gets pretty unorganized near the end.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#78796: Feb 16th 2018 at 3:46:58 PM

@ Bojac: I think the program-driven Imperfect Cell would be loyal. When he becomes perfect he wouldn't go out of his way to kill Gero, but if he does interfere his creator's life is forfeit. At the very least he wouldn't be sadistic about it. I think one of the reasons why he'd want to interact with Dr Gero is ask what his purpose is meant to be after he's perfect. I say this because in canon he has a moment where he wonders what he should do after becoming Perfect, settling on the Cell Games and killing everyone afterwards for something to entertain him

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#78797: Feb 16th 2018 at 5:05:42 PM

Yeah I don't think "Vegeta got his ass kicked by Zarbon, but then gets a power boost and easily beats Zarbon" is exactly a ringing endorsement of "weaker person beats stronger person" in this series.

edited 16th Feb '18 5:06:05 PM by Moth13

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#78798: Feb 16th 2018 at 5:08:23 PM

I believe the point being made is that Vegeta was still weaker even after the power-boost, he just closed the gap enough that the dirty tactics actually mattered.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#78799: Feb 16th 2018 at 5:09:28 PM

It's already been pointed out that that's not what happened so it's fine.

[up] Yes. Vegeta notes that Zarbon's power fell a lot, and Zarbon says he's still stronger than Vegeta. '"Then'' Vegeta reveals his Zenkai has made him stronger, and they trade blows until he manages to pierce Zarbon's gut.

So the weakened Zarbon is still able to trade blows with Vegeta, who doesn't just instantly gut punch him.

edited 16th Feb '18 5:10:50 PM by Saiga

Cross (Don’t ask)
#78800: Feb 16th 2018 at 5:09:36 PM

[up][up][up]

edited 16th Feb '18 5:10:22 PM by Cross


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