Say what you want about Dragon Ball Super, but it wouldn't have an arc villain overpower SSB Goku and then get beaten by base Goku. GT did that TWICE, once with Super 17 and once with Omega Shenron.
Also, fun fact: the Super 17 arc is REALLY short. Like, shorter than any other major arc in the franchise. It's 7 episodes long. Closest would be the Res 'F' arc in Super, which was 9 episodes long.
Wait what does it matter what form the villain is beaten in? Goku was evenly matched with Kid Buu in Super Saiyan 3 but ended up beating him in Super Saiyan 1.
This song needs more love.Didn't Goku use a spirit bomb to beat Omega Shenron?
You don't need to be powered up to use that, I don't think. The whole point is you're stealborrowing energy from everything else.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI subscribe to the theory that Goku was killed by that and stuck around through the sheer power of Shonen.
This song needs more love.To be honest, in GT episode 63, just before the final episode, a big change comes over Goku. Those who watched carefully might have noticed, but… In that episode, Goku, who takes Yi Xing Long‘s attack, sinks to the bottom of a deep hole. That is the turning point. Afterward, Goku still continues the battle, but what’s different from before is that he’s cloaked in an aura that won’t let any attack near him.
It might be that he died there, or it might be that he became something else entirely. I’ll leave that decision to the imaginations of everyone who watched. However, the Goku up to that point that everyone knows clearly does not appear after that.
In the world of Dragon Ball, Goku had already died multiple times, and up till then, each time he appeared with a halo over his head. However, I didn’t want to go with the usual concept of, “even when he dies, he comes right back to life”. I wanted the viewers to picture “death” in that way, and feel a sadness close to it in reality. So I had a “change” come over Goku.
And then after that, once he defeats Yi Xing Long and grants the final wish, Goku goes right off with Shenlong and the Dragon Balls, to somewhere that people definitely can’t get to. While wishing that people will be able to get by on their own strength in a world without the Dragon Balls. And Vegeta is the only one who notices where he’s headed.
Except, I personally go ahead and imagine… that Goku might unexpectedly show up, just at Chi-Chi’s, from time to time. Yes, unexpectedly….
[caption] The line “Shenlong’s back… it sure is warm…”, which Goku says at the very end, is apparently something that was suggested at a much earlier stage and then thawed out for the final episode.
I recommend reading the whole thing. Some interesting stuff on the thought process behind decisions.
I was curious so I looked it up. In the dub, Gero and Myuu say "When these two Androids merge, they will become the most perfect being ever created. Each complete part of one will fill in the incomplete gaps in the other's mechanical structure. The machine parts will take on an organic quality, like a cyborg." "And, it will mutate, to become more efficient." In the sub they just say "When they become one, all of the systems in their body will become perfect, and Number 17 will be reborn as the mightiest ultimate artificial human". Gotta say I prefer the dub's explanation there.
Another interesting discrepancy I found, in the sub Hell Fighter 17 is around Vegeta's power level, but in the dub Vegeta calls him a joke, implying his power was around that of the original 17.
In dub-related news, Christopher Sabat (voice of Vegeta, Piccolo, Yamcha, Shenron, and others) is to be honored as an "Industry Icon
" at Crunchyrolls' Anime Awards.
I think he deserves it. He's been with Funimation since the start, and is just an awesome guy in general.
edited 9th Feb '18 4:48:54 PM by DarkHunter
The dub explanation brings me back to what I'd previously said about liking the concept for Machine Mutants and thinking it could work for an antagonist. Android 17 be upgraded with Machine Mutant technology to be the best of Gero and Myuu's work is a decent premise for a powerful villain.
Of course, there's the whole 'making HF 17' and 'characters having bodies in hell' things. The second is consistent with the anime, but just raises so many questions if they have that kind of freedom and capability in hell. I'd like to see the idea done in a way that could be compliant with the manga version of hell but doesn't really think it's possible. The out-there idea I had was that the machine mutant's souls still had the 'merge with machines' ability, and they merge with the soul cleansing machine of hell to give their bodies back and take over hell, kicking off the arc and allowing Myuu to create Super 17.
As for using Goku vs 17 to try and defend Super, I don't think that one example makes for a very compelling defense. There's not much difference between Goku vs 17 and Goku vs Kale inconsistencies - yeah, obviously the difference between base GT Goku and SS 4 Goku is a lot bigger than God Goku and Blue Goku, but in either case the difference between forms is substantial enough to create a logic break and it's still the same kind of consistency. And the later version I would say is easily worse written because there is no attempt to reconcile these differences, whereas GT at least goes with the idea that Super 17's absorption leaves him vulnerable.
And yeah, 18's line from the video is clearly that if she stops blasting 17 it will lead to her death - because he'll kill her.
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Technically, there is a line that does explain it. Goku saying "I'll use a little bit more power" when he goes Blue. Hey, it's just as valid of an explanation as "Super 17 is vulnerable when absorbing energy", and Kale isn't an Arc Villain, so it's less egregious.
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If I'm being honest, I never thought we were going to get Jiren's backstory. We didn't get one on Hit, and all Hit needed was a single line establishing that he's over 1,000 years old.
edited 10th Feb '18 6:55:03 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Super & GT had 3 story arcs in their run.
Point in GT's favor is that all those arcs were serialized epics ala Frieza Saga or Cell Saga.
Super only has one, the Black Saga though the Universal Destruction Saga is a bit more serialized due to the battle royale format.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."