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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77826: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:13:18 AM

Well, maybe not then, but I'm sure he knows now. That's what I thought we were talking about, what with the present tense and all.

And I'm now remembering that "he's" can be "he is" or "he was", so there was the mix-up.

edited 8th Feb '18 12:15:14 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77827: Feb 8th 2018 at 12:17:17 AM

I still see enough Unfortunate Implications pop up in contemporary manga that I wouldn't assume it currently, either. In Toriyama's case, I have nothing recent to judge off since we don't get stuff directly from him and the subject hasn't come up in interviews.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77828: Feb 8th 2018 at 6:38:27 AM

Ok. I guess that makes sense.

I'll accept that, and it's not like her being weaker hurt anything. Weaker than her bro is still powerful enough to flatten everyone in the cast at the point when she was introduced.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77829: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:29:40 AM

16 said fused Piccolo had enough power to rival 17 and 18, so I doubt the gap was very big at all.

As far as I can recall 16 only said that Piccolo was about equal to just 17 in strength, not 18. It would make sense really; why would he only reduce the power slightly? 17 is significantly weaker than 16, and 19 is significantly weaker than 18. But for 18 he decides only a slight power decrease is adequate?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77830: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:34:34 AM

Probably because they're the same type of Android rather than all mechanical like 16 and 19.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#77831: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:44:10 AM

Not to mention, Android 18 was the one who defeated a Super Saiyan.

@Saiga

Why do you believe that Android 20 was more menacing than Cell, 17 and 18? I heard that it was an editing decision that Android 20 and 19 were replaced because the editor felt that were not terrifying enough.

"Mai waifu."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77832: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:47:04 AM

I mean considering the first thing we see Gero do is drain and kill Yamcha, I'd say that's a good mark of being terrifying.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77833: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:47:07 AM

[up][up]And? It's made perfectly clear that 17 could also do that, and he was fighting evenly with someone much stronger than the Vegeta that 18 fought.

edited 8th Feb '18 7:47:56 AM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77834: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:54:35 AM

The problem with 18 is less that she's weaker than 17 and more that she doesn't do anything for the rest of the series really.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77835: Feb 8th 2018 at 7:58:06 AM

She became Krillin's sexdoll. Thats something.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77836: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:00:07 AM

She doesn't do anything for the rest of that story in general...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77837: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:03:50 AM

On a serious note, 18 had kind of served her purpose after her fight with Vegeta. She was there to establish how much stronger the Androids were to a Super Saiyan.

And when Cell revealed he needed to absorb them to evolve to his Perfect form, that was a foregone conclusion that their time was limited.

edited 8th Feb '18 8:04:24 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77838: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:07:13 AM

Yes. But she survived. And despite being with the main cast, she doesn't really contribute in any way shape or form beyond then aside from... IIRC, getting paid by Satan to take a fall?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#77839: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:12:18 AM

17 does less than 18, though.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77840: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:25:40 AM

[up][up] She became a supporting character for one. And two, what could she do? She was long surpassed by the Saiyans by the next arc so it's not like she could do anything.

Not every character need a continuous purpose. Sometimes its ok to fade into the background.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77841: Feb 8th 2018 at 8:53:24 AM

[up]

Though how well do they really do that?

I mean, while their contributions to fights become minimal, they still show up a lot—such as jumping into battle to just get defeated—and it’s not like Toriyama did all that much with many of them when they were important.

I like Krillin, but 18 deserves better then being his reward. She had great potential that Toriyama never tried to capitalize on.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77842: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:08:15 AM

You can literally say that about any character in anything ever. That they have "potential". Farmer with a Shotgun has "potential" if want to stretch it.

All that is just masking that fans want their favorite characters to be in the spotlight and focused on and nothing more.

Which isn't wrong in itself mind you, but then fans speak as if their own headcanons for their favorites are inherently superior to the official material.

And this is what leads to a lot of bad fanfiction.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77843: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:18:46 AM

18 isn't even a character from Dragonball I particularly like, I'm just pointing out that the one female character who is treated with any dignity as a fighter whatsoever (Lanfan's fighting style is a combo of Wouldn't Hit a Girl and weaponized fanservice and Chi-Chi is a walking joke) is basically immediately scooted off screen and housewifed.

edited 8th Feb '18 9:23:23 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77844: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:20:57 AM

So I learned about Android 21 today

She sure is something

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77845: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:24:10 AM

[up][up]I'd say Videl is a much worse example of that, but only during Super. Whether 18 is a "reward" or not doesn't change that she basically stays her own person with her own personality, instead of being radically altered like Videl was.

edited 8th Feb '18 9:24:21 AM by LSBK

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77846: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:27:58 AM

Like a lot of shonen authors Toriyama just doesn't seem too interested in female characters outside of fanservice and romance

And since Toriyama has stated he isn't interested and or confident in writing romance, it limits their use even more

Bulma comes off better than most because she always has SCIENCE to keep her relevant

Although who can say how things would have been if Toriyama had gone with his first second plan and 18 was half of the real final arc boss

edited 8th Feb '18 9:28:42 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77847: Feb 8th 2018 at 9:52:52 AM

No, actually, I doubt it's because of sexism. If it was, why would Toriyama explain it within the manga? He'd just have it there as a given.

"Sexism can't have been involved because there's an in-universe explanation" is... quite a take.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#77848: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:00:34 AM

I think he means intentional sexism.

In any case I do have to agree that 18 had pretty much fulfilled her role in the story by that point.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77849: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:02:17 AM

Saiga noted the implications were still there, just that there's not a lot of reason to believe it was done because "she's a woman, of course she has to be weaker", which seems to be what people were implying. That's my take on the discussion.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77850: Feb 8th 2018 at 10:09:49 AM

New roles can always be added

Look at Vegeta. Like a roloflex

Hypothetically 18 may have decided to become stronger, angry that she thought she was one of the two strongest people in the world only to get eaten by Cell and then be vomited up to find half the cast now outdid her.

Or she could have decided to honor 16's all-loving except for Cell and Goku nature by becoming one of Earth's protectors.

By the time the Buu Saga rolled around, she could have been in the grouping of people that went along to try to stop Buu from being awakened.

Would this have been the best use for her? Shrug. Its about preferences. Her blackmailing Hercule Mark Satan is still hilarious to me even years later. Pragmatism at its finest.

It would have made her more of an active participant in the plot. She could have been there to react to Krillin getting stoned. She would have ended up completely useless just like everyone else because Dragonball inevitably trends towards Goku which again is a matter of preference whether thats a problem.

Actually for years I assumed that cyborgs like 17 and 18 couldn't get stronger. Because. Cyborg. But apparently 17 was able to keep up leg day even while ranging the shit out of a park. And there's probably no gravity or hyperbolic time chamber out in the park so. Good job?

edited 8th Feb '18 10:11:42 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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