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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77776: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:24:28 PM

I mean, the moment works for me, but when someone says it doesn't work for that reason (no connection with 16), I do understand what they mean.

Oh, and while I agree with Plague on quite a few things, I think Gohan is where I most disagree with him a lot. Something he said stuck out to me: "People identify with Gohan because they were kids when they watched it, and that's a bad thing because the character is just written to be identified with" - or something to that effect, I can't remember the exact quote.

But I disagree, and I think I know why. Gohan is just the logical opposite to Goku. Goku doesn't start out as the big dog on the end of the block, he just wants to be stronger and his adventures are a road to becoming physically stronger. Gohan is the opposite - he has all the power, but his adventures are about mentally becoming the right person to wield all that power.

That might be why Toriyama kicked Gohan back downstairs - because once Gohan mentally becomes that sort of person, all you can do is have him go through that character arc again. Because his journey isn't about becoming physically stronger, which limits the stuff you can do with him after that central character arc is finished.

But I actually think that's a very good idea for a character arc (albiet, a not very complex one) especially as he serves in the shadow of his father. So I don't think it's just the 12-year old power fantasy in play (although that is almost certainly part of his popularity) - and nor do I think that 12-year old power fantasy means that you have to disregard everything else about his character.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:30:30 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77777: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:24:36 PM

[up][up]and [up]

What did he say? His videos are too long, so I don't tend to watch them.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:26:40 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77778: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:28:00 PM

I don't remember well but he criticized the scene & called it emotionally manipulative.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77779: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:32:29 PM

[up][up] I've edited my post to include something he said, but he also takes the position of Gohan's powerups being unearned, which I do understand, but for me the powerups just became the worst thing about Z in general and Gohan's character arc (as I elaborated on in my edit) does not revolve around gaining power so it isn't really a big problem for me.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77780: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:42:35 PM

More and more, Plague of Grips being wrong seems to be the norm.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77781: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:44:52 PM

Well, a lot of his complaints are pretty much spot on. I especially appreciated him going through how the power system actually works in fights and pointing out how arbitrary it is. Like, people will go on about power levels and stuff like that but he's the only guy I know who sat down and decided to go through how, mechanically, all these battles are turning out.

I think when it comes to more general writing complaints I tend to agree and when it comes to specifics I tend to disagree more.

I think there's something pretty insightful which he said which I really think sums a lot of my problems with DB, and that is how they never meet someone who they can't beat without just powering up more.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:48:27 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#77782: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:45:07 PM

My hot take is that Dragonball has exceptionally poor plotting but is exceptionally good at unique and memorable moments

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77783: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:03:06 PM

[up][up] Plenty of people have gone through the fights. Where did he do this?

Edit: and yeah, I disagree with that being a problem. It's just such a non-issue because it feels like that kind of problem would only be there to satisfy people who want that specific thing and it's entirely unrelated to the themes of the series.

That's also way too basic to be at all insightful

[up] I disagree with it being poorly plotted. There are noticeable problems due to the improv style but I think there are lots of well plotted arcs

edited 7th Feb '18 5:05:47 PM by Saiga

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#77784: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:06:30 PM

On the topic of Toriyama's editor and ex-editor telling him to change things:

I think that Imperfect Cell has a better design for a villain than Perfect Cell. Is this an unpopular opinion?

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77785: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:06:36 PM

[up][up]His "power levels are stupid" video. (Considering how many videos are on the topic you may need to look a little before you find it).

A lot of it was explaining stuff like why characters don't just spam kamehamehas and whatnot, and stamina management and all of that.

(Though I must admit, I'm not sure exactly what themes of the series would be effected by having the fights be mechanically interesting. Maybe I just don't get it.)

[up] The fish lips just don't do it for me.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:11:27 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77786: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:12:55 PM

Two sets of spoilers for episodes 127-129. They really don't tell you anything that wasn't immediately obvious from the episode titles.

Link 1

Link 2

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77787: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:13:35 PM

Personally, as long as something makes sense, I don't really care if things are solved by "powering up" or not.

Often that just comes off as a complaint from people who just want to sound smart, without really thinking about why things are happening the way they are in whatever series they're complaining about.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77788: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:16:16 PM

[up] That's absolutely wrong.

There is an art to making fights where the different participants have their powers interact in unique and unexpected ways.

It may not be up your specific street - maybe you enjoy different things out of a series, I'm not judging - but I find it highly condescending that you dismiss people who do enjoy having those sorts of mechanical interactions as "just trying to sound smart."

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77789: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:18:20 PM

I didn't say all the time, I said often. It's a big part of the reason I think many people like Hunter X Hunter despite it not seeming nearly as subversive as people describe it. And the ways it is different don't always strike me as pluses.

I think a lot of people conflate being "intelligent" with the kind of power instead of how it's used, or they have really skewed perspectives on what using a power "intelligently" is.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:21:43 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77790: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:28:15 PM

The thing is, you can have interesting fights where the hero has a flat out simple power advantage and his enemy has a tricky power that he has to overcome.

Let's use, for example, an actual Dragonball fight to show how this can work. Goku in this has no real special tricks up his sleeve, Tien has plenty up his. (well, up his cuffs, guy doesn't have sleeves)

Goku V Tien, 22 BT.

Tien has several powers at his disposal that Goku must overcome one-by-one. He defeats Tien's third eye in a Zanzoken duel by double-bluffing him. He defeats the Solar Flare by stealing Roshi's shades. He defeats the Four Arms technique by copying King Choppa's eight arm illusion from earlier in the BT. And he defeats the Kikoho/flight combo with smart use of his Kamehameha.

All four of these victories that build Goku's whole victory (well, sort of) over Tien are foreshadowed in different matches - the first in Roshi V Tien when Roshi tried to use illusions on Tien, the second when Tien used the Solar Flare on Roshi and the announcer was unaffected, the third with Goku's fight with King Choppa and the last with Krillin's battle with Chaotzu.

I find this a much more compelling tapestry than some of the later DB fights, tbh. None of them require Goku to really deviate from his standard setup much, none of them have a cop out where he just overpowers Tien. He is stronger, as is clear from their physical confrontations. But he also gets to display his intelligence in ways that don't let him just power through stuff.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:30:18 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77791: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:31:06 PM

When did I say that you couldn't do that? Anything can be interesting with the right writing. My point is there's nothing inherently advantageous to fights against "tricky" powers, and those can be handled just as terribly, and using that as a benchmark for "interesting" or "intelligence" as many people do just strikes me as misguided.

And in Dragon Ball's case that's missing the point that, often intentionally, those tricky techniques just suck.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:33:50 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77792: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:32:03 PM

I was responding to this:

I think a lot of people conflate being "intelligent" with the kind of power instead of how it's used, or they have really skewed perspectives on what using a power "intelligently" is.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:32:50 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77793: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:34:28 PM

I know what you were responding to, it still doesn't change anything. At no point did I say everyone (or you, specifically) does that. But it is something I see crop up often, and it's annoying when people don't notice that a fight is being done well, just because it also happens to be straightforward. Or when they ignore that something is intelligently done just because there's no convoluted plan or mountains of text.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:36:43 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77794: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:35:37 PM

Though I must admit, I'm not sure exactly what themes of the series would be effected by having the fights be mechanically interesting. Maybe I just don't get it.

That's a loaded statement. Enemies that can't be overpowered are not synonymous with being mechanically interesting.

You can be interesting without it, you can be boring with it.

For a series whose main theme is 'getting stronger', having an enemy who you can never become strong enough to overcome isn't a good fit. And being unable to be overpowered EVER in a series with such high power scaling is ridiculously broken and really illogical.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77795: Feb 7th 2018 at 5:36:51 PM

A power that you can't just power through is not a power that can't be defeated. Becoming a better fighter is more than just becoming physically stronger or faster.

Not to mention, for this series the power scaling is the problem. That's a problem created by Toriyama just flat out having barely any interesting powers after the Ginyu fight. It's not a problem he just inherited, he chose to go that route. That's why Dragonball is seen as, when it comes to power scaling, as something to avoid, not imitate. People always bring it up as an example of what not to do in that regard.

edited 7th Feb '18 5:39:33 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77796: Feb 7th 2018 at 6:07:44 PM

Yeah yeah things can be done in a good way or a bad way what a shocker. Anyway check this out.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77797: Feb 7th 2018 at 6:21:48 PM

Just barely avoided cracking up at that one.

Whoever made that should pat themselves on the back.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77798: Feb 7th 2018 at 6:29:31 PM

A power that you can't just power through is not a power that can't be defeated. Becoming a better fighter is more than just becoming physically stronger or faster.

That isn't what I said at all. I'm saying that in a series with this kind of powerscale, you'd have to have some really broken power to be completely unable to be powered through. And it's just illogical.

It can work for a series without that power scale, that doesn't mean every series should adopt it.

Not to mention, for this series the power scaling is the problem. That's a problem created by Toriyama just flat out having barely any interesting powers after the Ginyu fight. It's not a problem he just inherited, he chose to go that route. That's why Dragonball is seen as, when it comes to power scaling, as something to avoid, not imitate. People always bring it up as an example of what not to do in that regard.

A vocal minority brings it up as something to avoid, and I feel like a large number of those completely miss the point and fail to see the merit in series different than what they're looking for. You shouldn't act like there is some consensus that everyone thinks the powerscaling of a DB is a flaw, because it's not even remotely true.

Also, there are plenty of interesting powers after Ginyu. Dende introduces healing via ki. Freeza has some neat techniques, including a barrier and trap ball thingy. Goku introduces true teleportation. The Androids (and Cell) bring energy draining, defensive barriers, and absorption. Yakon has light absorption, Dabra has stone spit, fire breath and materializes weapons. Majin Boo has his change beam, a new type of absorption, and uses his own body parts as weapons. Gotenks has his whole arsenal and Vegetto has his spirit sword. The amount of interesting techniques didn't go down AT ALL.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#77799: Feb 7th 2018 at 6:29:52 PM

I don't even get the joke and I found it hilarious.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#77800: Feb 7th 2018 at 6:34:09 PM

I appreciate Dragon Ball for laying the foundations at least. That way when I read or watch new Shonen manga I have a point of comparison.


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