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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77726: Feb 7th 2018 at 10:24:59 AM

Kid Buu - Vegeta ran interference while Goku spirit bombed him all the way to GT.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77727: Feb 7th 2018 at 10:26:55 AM

Goku also needs time to concentrate before he can use Instant Transmission. The move itself might be instantaneous, but he needs a couple seconds of time to focus on a destination, especially for long distances. Notice that when Kid Buu was about to destroy Earth, Goku wasn't able to teleport them out because he didn't have enough time to focus. Kibitoshin had to come in with Kaikai and save them because Kaikai requires much less focus time.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77728: Feb 7th 2018 at 12:54:36 PM

Yeah, there's always a delay before he can teleport. The anime makes it look like he can spam it with ease, which makes the manga scenes they adapt look really weird by comparison.

I agree that Jiren's power doesn't fit this plot. In a different style arc, him being outrageously powerful but not taking his opponents seriously could be fine. Here, when he has a time limit and no-one is realistically a threat to him if he goes all out, it becomes ridiculous.

It would lose the 'OMG Jiren too stronk' aspect, but he should have been close enough in power to Goku/Vegeta that he couldn't afford to make a move too soon. Have both the U 11 and U 7 top tier fighters expect each other to be on roughly even playing fields, but not entirely sure who would win and therefore not willing to risk anything until they can fight each other at full power.

Then after UI Goku vs Jiren, Jiren is actually exhausted and needs to meditate to recover his stamina quickly.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77729: Feb 7th 2018 at 1:07:17 PM

Then after UI Goku vs Jiren, Jiren is actually exhausted and needs to meditate to recover his stamina quickly.

You could even make it look like he's somewhat otherworldly - maybe he suffered a dislocated arm or something but as he's resting and medidating it clicks back into place of its own accord.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77730: Feb 7th 2018 at 1:50:23 PM

I'd like to check two things: did Future Vegeta have Super Saiyan and do we know when Future Gohan got Super Saiyan? If the Future Vegeta did have Super Saiyan, guy must've been slacking on his training to get easily beaten by two Androids who were both weaker than the present-day Androids and were holding back half their strength.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77731: Feb 7th 2018 at 1:52:02 PM

It should be noted that Future Gohan is also a Super Saiyan and is also weaker than the two androids combined.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77732: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:02:54 PM

The way I read it, the future androids weren't weaker or stronger than the main timeline ones. Trunks just never saw them fight seriously, and everyone who did was dead.

Vegeta probably was a Super Saiyan when the androids attacked. Future warning or no, he'd be training to surpass Goku anyway. However, without the year of training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he just wasn't strong enough to beat either of them, just like in the main timeline.

When did Future Gohan get SS? Probably later than in the main timeline, since he didn't have his father to mentor him, nor the training from the HTC. He probably managed it comparatively easily, though, since he's been getting rage boosts since he was a child, and there was plenty of stuff to rage about in the bad future.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77733: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:12:06 PM

Unless there's another source, there's no reason not to take Trunks' word to heart that main androids are stronger than their future counterparts..

It's an In Spite of a Nail angle sort of, Vegeta probably did have Super Saiyan in the future timeline, but since he had no prior knowledge of the Androids, he probably didn't train as hard as he would have.

However, even with this knowledge in the main timeline, thr Androids are still stronger, he just doesn't get killed.

And I believe Future Gohan got SSJ when Piccolo died.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77734: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:14:44 PM

I think one of those daizenshuu's actually does say the present ones are still stronger than Future!Trunks' androids, but don't quote me on that.

I remember it coming up among one of these discussions though. Really, while I understand thinking "They were equal, Trunks didn't know" from a logical standpoint, narratively that doesn't make sense because the entire reason that was brought up was as another way to illustrate how much Trunks changed the timeline by time-travelling. It's not something that's supposed to be explained away.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77735: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:16:37 PM

It makes no sense...their strength didn't need to change.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77736: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:17:15 PM

Yeah, I also don't understand why his interference made them stronger either.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77737: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:20:14 PM

I mean, why did Gero and 19 show up in the main timeline but not Trunks? Why did the heart disease set in at a different time? None of these thing seem logically related to Trunks' actions, but him interfering with things is the implicit (or is it explicit) reason that they happened.

So, basically the Butter Fly Effect. Perhaps not the most logical usage of it, but that's clearly what Toriyama was going for.

edited 7th Feb '18 2:25:57 PM by LSBK

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77738: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:22:43 PM

Maybe not having to fight Freezerator as soon as he got back to Earth had something to do with the slow heart virus.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#77739: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:26:36 PM

did Future Vegeta have Super Saiyan

From all indication.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77740: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:30:13 PM

Still feels weird to me that he couldn't even put up a fight against a weaker 17 at half strength. I'm just assuming the Androids were at half strength because Future Gohan didn't know they were capable of being twice as strong as they were when he fought them.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77741: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:33:24 PM

I mean, why did Gero and 19 show up in the main timeline but not Trunks?

I'd say they did, and they got their asses handed to them, just like in the main timeline. Then Gero retreated to his lab and released 17 and 18. Trunks didn't know because he was a baby at the time, Bulma would only remember hearing about "two androids suddenly showed up and are destroying everything" on the news, and Gohan was probably left at home because his dad was already dead and his mother wouldn't allow him to be involved any more.

The real question is why there is no 16 in Trunks' timeline.

EDIT: Of course, the real answer to all these questions is "because Toriyama is a hack"

edited 7th Feb '18 2:34:44 PM by Kayeka

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77742: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:42:37 PM

The special has Super Saiyan Vegeta, the manga says nothing.

For Trunks' travel, I like to think the butterfly effect only changes the timing of things. We know the timing of Goku's heart virus and the time the Androids attacked is off, and apparently the timing of Freeza's arrival is off - Trunks knows the time and locatio Goku's ship will arrive, and he expected Goku to get tyere before Freeza. Even though Goku reveals he can teleport, it would appear he didn't do this in the main timeline if Trunks knows when his ship would normally arrive.

If the future Androids really are weaker and crueler, then I'd say the difference is that in the future Gero adjusted the Androids before the attack (weaker/more susceptible to their control), and was then killed before the attack on the island.

In the main timeline, this is thrown off, and Gero does not adjust the Androids before his attack. He mentions that he intended to do so when he goes to activate them, so there's that.

Doesn't explain Trunks mentioning 19/20 though. I have a separate, incompatible theory for that - 19/20 did originally attack and Trunks was told this, but he didn't know 17 and 18 were different Androids so when he went back to his time and heard those two address each other by number he 'corrected' himself.

[up] That's incredibly harsh given that he was told to change his original plans upon the debut of 19/20 being published when working on a weekly series

edited 7th Feb '18 2:46:13 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77743: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:44:32 PM

Of course, the real answer to all these questions is "because Toriyama is a hack"

NVM. Too easy.

edited 7th Feb '18 2:46:38 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77744: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:51:26 PM

Actually, no, he's right, there is no reason to introduce 16. Like, aside from that there's some pretty impressive improvising going on, but I can't for the life of me fathom what he was planning to do with 16. Everything else holds together if you don't examine it too closely, except for 16.

edited 7th Feb '18 2:52:16 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77745: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:54:58 PM

Toriyama's not a hack.

He's just lazy.tongue

But yeah, the real problem is that he was constantly told to change things (though by someone who he didn't have any official authority, but who Akira respected enough that he did so).

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#77746: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:58:27 PM

I mean, as much as we tend to ream on these creators it's important to remember that drawing and plotting out a weekly manga is pretty fucking hard.

edited 7th Feb '18 2:59:17 PM by Lionheart0

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77747: Feb 7th 2018 at 2:59:17 PM

[up][up]Eh, it was a change for the better. 19 and 20 really weren't "ultimate villain" stuff, nor were 17 and 18 (though they were definitely an improvement). Gaping holes aside, at least we got Cell out of all of this.

[up]Oh, definitely, not knocking that.

edited 7th Feb '18 3:00:02 PM by Kayeka

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77748: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:04:22 PM

Hmm... Cell... While his battle is my second favourite out of the four DBZ villains (I rank them thusly - Vegeta, Cell, Freeza, Buu) I think Cell might have the least to offer out of them in terms of character.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77749: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:06:09 PM

Grandeur, he had that & menance in spades.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77750: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:16:36 PM

[up]Exactly, which I consider to be fine traits for a real arc-defining villain. 17 and 18 could be menacing, but were really just a pair of cranky teenagers. 19 and 20 had neither, since they were respectively a clown and an old man. (though I did like Yamcha getting robo-stabbed. That was pretty freaky)

While Cell doesn't exactly integrate seamlessly into the plot, and is rather generic in his doomsday villainy, he was at least able to properly sell me on it, so to speak.

edited 7th Feb '18 3:18:21 PM by Kayeka


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