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Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#77526: Feb 6th 2018 at 4:42:11 AM

[up][up] But Toppo didn't throw everything he cares about because of selfish reasons. Again, fighting for his universe. It just shows the survival of his universe is more important to him than justice.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#77527: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:14:38 AM

But he did throw away his ideals. And that's what aggravates Vegeta - Toppo mocking him for even having ideals, telling him basically to regress back to his Saiyan saga self.

We know Toppo is fighting for his universe. Vegeta only sees Toppo demanding his survival, not talking about the people he wants to save or that anyone in particular matters to him. Vegeta hasn't witnessed the Toppo we saw before the tournament. As far as Vegeta's seen Toppo went from being about JUSTICE, to this towering, purple behemoth who believes that all of his previous ideals are worthless.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77528: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:17:55 AM

His previous ideals are worthless though...considering he's not a primary character.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77529: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:20:18 AM

I gotta agree with Toppo's choice in the end.

I mean what he did was neither wrong nor right due to it being a very grey moral choice but overall the power boost & extra abilities was well worth it especially if his universe survives.

He only lost because plot convenience made him weaker than he was compared to his first showing in the previous episode & Vegeta got a nakama boost which turned the fight into a boring ass Fairy Tail-esque curb-stomp battle.

edited 6th Feb '18 5:22:07 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77530: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:27:24 AM

Weird, usually only one character per fight gets to curbstomp.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#77531: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:34:58 AM

And yet Vegeta was the one being portrayed as in the right, because Toppo is the one humiliated, beaten up and called pathetic by a person he considers his best friend. Using a metaphor, it's like seeing a white, rich, handsome celebrity who committed hundred of crimes getting forgiven and the black, ugly, poor guy who worked hard for all his life and was forced to to commit crimes for survival get criticized by everyone including the former. Except in this case it's worse, because Vegeta committed genocides, all of which he enjoyed, while Toppo regularly saves people, and is doing this for the sake of his home and the people he sworn to protect. While I can understand Vegeta not understanding Toppo because he doesn't know him, Jiren does, and yet we see how he treats him. I don't think Vegeta is being a hypocrite, I'm angry because somehow Toppo is the villain in this situation.

edited 6th Feb '18 5:35:22 AM by Ikedatakeshi

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77532: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:37:21 AM

I think Jiren might just be an asshole.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77533: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:38:52 AM

Toppo appears to be undergoing informed wrongness & designated villainy.

Poor guy cause thinking deeper Frieza did score a giant wound on his back so the implication was that he could have eliminated Toppo right then & there.

So really going God Mode was literally do or die. If your only option is to give up or keep fighting holding nothing back what wouldn't you pick the latter? Toppo made the right call really unless you expect him to just accept his & his universe's impending oblivion.

[up] I don't know what else to call someone who would call their just beaten up friend pathetic other than an asshole so yeah Jiren is a fucking prick.

edited 6th Feb '18 5:46:56 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77534: Feb 6th 2018 at 5:48:30 AM

...someone who would call their just beaten up friend pathetic...
A significant character defining moment...how many episodes in?

edited 6th Feb '18 5:49:30 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#77535: Feb 6th 2018 at 6:08:19 AM

It is official Jiren is now the designated villain. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

"Mai waifu."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77536: Feb 6th 2018 at 6:28:59 AM

Well, not designated villain, more like Toppo is unintentionally sympathetic. They clearly intended for us to agree with Jiren. They just fucked up.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77537: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:01:42 AM

I don't think they intended for us to agree with Jiren. Goku, our hero, goes "how could you?!" and Jiren immediately kicks him into a wall. I think they want us to see Jiren as more of an asshole so it feels good when Ultra Instinct Goku slams him into the floor.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77538: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:08:07 AM

That sounds really funny...Kakarrot just getting knocked aside by the jerk who agrees with Veggie.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#77539: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:10:26 AM

Perhaps I'm projecting too much into this. But somehow people keep saying Toppo was wrong(mostly from reddit) for doing what he did, despite him having no other choice.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77540: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:11:35 AM

Characters can have more than one direction to have character growth. Vegeta learning humility at the feet of Lord Beerus is one direction to take his character development. Vegeta finding that the good person he's turned into is someone to be proud of, instead of disgusted by and hated like in the Buu Saga, is another.

Pride is not inherently a bad thing, and it is also not inarguably something Vegeta needs to throw away permanently in order to grow as a character. Vegeta, at the start of the series, didn't care about the Saiyans and his teammates in the slightest, and was arrogant about his lineage as Saiyan royalty. Vegeta, during the Buu Saga, caught himself developing feelings for his family and hated himself for it, wanting to return to the evil and independent monster he used to be. During the end of the Buu saga and early Super, Vegeta is embarrassed to be seen in public showing affection to his family. Vegeta, now, is fighting for the lives of his family and the Saiyans and is taking pride in himself for having grown into a good person and fighting for such noble and personal causes. I think that's a beautiful and very well-realized character arc.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77541: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:14:21 AM

I could maybe understand that if they played it differently, but they didn't. He didn't turn super evil or sadistic, he just made a really hard choice for what he thought it would take to save perhaps literally quadrillions of lives.

Ignoring how it really shouldn't have been portrayed as if he need to make a choice between the two, I feel like that's better than just going on about "justice" all the time actually strikes me as a bit naïve and immature, though that probably comes off as more condescending than I would like.

I'd say people are more shitting on Toppo just because they desperately want Vegeta to have a good moment, but I can't fairly say that just yet.

edited 6th Feb '18 7:15:18 AM by LSBK

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#77542: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:19:35 AM

You know, if they did this in episode 122, it would be way better. Really, instead of him doing a final flash, he should have revealed the form after receiving the beatdown from Jiren, who also insulted him for his pride. Fits better against the actual arrogant asshole instead of the noble hero.

GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#77543: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:20:47 AM

Characters can have more than one direction to have character growth. Vegeta learning humility at the feet of Lord Beerus is one direction to take his character development. Vegeta finding that the good person he's turned into is someone to be proud of, instead of disgusted by and hated like in the Buu Saga, is another. Pride is not inherently a bad thing, and it is also not inarguably something Vegeta needs to throw away permanently in order to grow as a character. Vegeta, at the start of the series, didn't care about the Saiyans and his teammates in the slightest, and was arrogant about his lineage as Saiyan royalty. Vegeta, during the Buu Saga, caught himself developing feelings for his family and hated himself for it, wanting to return to the evil and independent monster he used to be. During the end of the Buu saga and early Super, Vegeta is embarrassed to be seen in public showing affection to his family. Vegeta, now, is fighting for the lives of his family and the Saiyans and is taking pride in himself for having grown into a good person and fighting for such noble and personal causes. I think that's a beautiful and very well-realized character arc.
.

"Throwing away his pride" takes on a different meaning here. Vegeta holding onto that pride in Z meant forsaking everything and everyone to prove he was the best there was at what he did. But now he isn't shouting from the rooftops, "I'M THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYAN, AND YOU WILL KNEEL BEFORE ME!" He's blasting Toppo for throwing away everything he cares about, including his ideals. They're not rehashing Vegeta being a prideful idiot, they're reinforcing that Vegeta's mindset has changed (while rehashing the scene where he blew himself up, yes) and that he's fighting for something, not just himself. When Vegeta does this, it's in direct response to Toppo telling him he needs to give up the things he's fighting for - Bulma, Trunks, Cabba - and Vegeta tells him to Shut Up Hannibal. In contrast to the Vegeta from the Saiyan-Cell sagas, Vegeta doesn't need to throw away his "pride," here, because that equates to doing what Toppo suggests and not fighting for Bulma and Trunks' sakes. Or at least that's what I took from it. I don't think the scene is bad. Maybe the execution didn't land for everyone, but clearly the intent was to be an, "awww, Vegeta really has changed," kind of moment, not a, "Vegeta is still the proudest, loudest, most gullible warrior in existence," kind of moment. As grumpy as Vegeta is around his family, he really, really does care. Super isn't just playing his Papa Wolf-ness for laughs anymore.
.

Well, I was going to counter Sigilbreaker 26's points, but both of you explain it in a way better than I could.

Well done. smile

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#77544: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:38:57 AM

While I don't necessarily agree, their arguments are well put. However, no matter how one feels about Vegeta, we can at least agree that this massive character moment should have been the impetus for his new form, rather than to power up a form he gained just two episodes ago, right? Also that this would be better used in episode 122, where instead of seemingly regressing and use a Final Flash against an enemy that was able to handle x20 Kaioken Goku, he shows his new form after getting beaten down by an impossibly strong foe and getting treated as an self-centered person, fueled by his pride towards his family and Cabba.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77545: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:48:21 AM

No, I think the moment works better against God Toppo, because of the Majin Vegeta parallels.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#77546: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:51:38 AM

Some people really like to joke about Vegeta caring about Cabba at all.

By the way, to the guy who asked: I consider Dragon Ball Super the Sonic The Hedgehog of anime because they aren't that different in the way they are critically received, doesn't matter how right they do something, there is a least ten wrongs with it.

And besides, they are also pretty similar due some core tropes (Goku and Sonic being static characters, the rival being more developed (Although Shadow's development is not that well handled), seven mcguffins, among other things)

At least Zamasu was a more complex villain than "IM NOT WEAK" Infinite.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77547: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:51:46 AM

[up][up]Have the transformation happen in the battle with Top-Man then.

[up]Why compare...even anything?

edited 6th Feb '18 7:52:58 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77548: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:52:29 AM

I still think the whole thing is ridiculous and poorly done, but whatever. Don't feel like getting into a five page debate about it. Let the Vegeta fans have their moment, lord knows they don't get a lot of them.

[up][up] That is an extremely shallow and poor comparison.

edited 6th Feb '18 7:53:56 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77549: Feb 6th 2018 at 7:54:44 AM

Except Toppo isn't throwing away everything he cares about. He's letting go of an aspect of himself in exchange for protecting everyone and everything he cares about. If you can save everything without giving up anything that obviously is great but a hero should be willing to sacrifice something.

This whole discussion reminds of the end of Avatar The Last Airbender, where a lot of people were mad that Aang was unwilling to sacrifice his spiritual needs for the fate of the world if there really was no other alternative. Except here people are made the Aang analog is willing to do that, because Vegeta needs to be more "righteous", and "Majin Vegeta parallels", that fall apart if you actually look at the situation closely.

edited 6th Feb '18 7:56:19 AM by LSBK

GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#77550: Feb 6th 2018 at 8:03:26 AM

Didn't Vegeta nearly sacrifice himself to take toppo out the ring?


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