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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77426: Feb 5th 2018 at 9:08:45 AM

Ya know now that I think about it, out of all the Super antags Hit is the only one who averts the "Arrogant Jackass" personality set.

Like Jiren he is very silent & stoic but when he actually talks he is very polite, respectful & never sounds condescending. He truly puts the professional in professional assassin as he's clearly a man who will only do things when absolutely necessary, not cause he's too cool for school unlike Jiren who is the typical stereotypical DB prick.

edited 5th Feb '18 9:09:36 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77427: Feb 5th 2018 at 9:09:38 AM

Yeah, after Beerus Hit is the best character to come out of Super in my opinion.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77428: Feb 5th 2018 at 9:16:15 AM

Technically Beerus first appeared in Battle of Gods which preceded Super by over a year.

So ergo Hit actually is the best character to come out of Super.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77429: Feb 5th 2018 at 9:43:31 AM

Hit is great; he's a standard "badass silent type" but he has such good one-liners and cool moveset that it works. He's post-SC Jotaro basically.

Also, Turns out Ultra Instinct is already in FighterZ

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77430: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:11:09 AM

Vegeta's recent character arc has been about finding the true meaning of pride. Not just arrogance in his lineage and royal blood, but actually taking pride in fighting for his family, the U6 Saiyans, and himself. Vegeta's become someone he can be proud of, for good reasons this time, and he's using this new pride as motivation to get stronger and fight harder.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77431: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:14:40 AM

Except he totally called it arrogance during his big speech to Jiren. I think he actually said "To me, that's what it means to be a Saiyan!" or something like that.

Yes, he cares about his family, but that's been there, and they aren't actually expanding on it. And Vegeta has always been allowed to fight, and he's even been allowed to win some fights. So they're not doing anything new on that front either.

edited 5th Feb '18 10:42:48 AM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77432: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:31:49 AM

I think it would count as actual character development if he wasn't acting like the humongous braggart he's always been.

Humitlity & learning when to keep your ass quiet as they say.

edited 5th Feb '18 10:32:16 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#77433: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:45:27 AM

[up]Vegeta not being full of himself. That's not the Vegeta I know. Lol

35 year old white man.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77434: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:55:30 AM

By the way, if anyone is a fan of Giant Bomb, Dan Ryckert and Jeff Gerstmann have started a podcast where they watch through Dragon Ball Z Kai.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77435: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:57:22 AM

The extreme parallels between this fight and the Majin Vegeta one are deliberate, and they're meant to highlight the contrast between Vegeta then and Vegeta now. Vegeta submitted himself to Babidi because he hated the person he had become and he thought it made him weak and soft, which is why he gave himself over to Babidi for more power. That never actually got resolved. Him admitting that Goku is better has nothing to do with that specifically. Even earlier in Super, he's embarrassed to be seen showing affection to Bulma and Trunks in public.

Vegeta has changed as a person since the Buu Saga, he's now fighting with pride in himself for the very traits he used to hate, and it's making him stronger.

edited 5th Feb '18 10:58:17 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77436: Feb 5th 2018 at 10:59:40 AM

[up][up][up] So who's the guy who keeps kowtowing to Beerus then? tongue

I'm pretty sure if Beerus were to say "raise your ass" Getes' response would be "How high?"

edited 5th Feb '18 10:59:59 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77437: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:05:14 AM

Yeah, Vegeta already got humility in Battle of Gods, that's old news. This is his character development past that.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77438: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:08:05 AM

This isn't character development, it's not even regression because that isn't really Vegeta - it's a mannequin acting out what the creators think Vegeta fans will enjoy seeing. It's the reason no hero ever uses a new attack in this series - they're just pandering to nostalgia.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77439: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:21:42 AM

I don't think calling back to old events is inherently bad, Super just does it in a very dry and vanilla fashion and they don't really add much beyond "HEY, REMEMBER THIS THING THAT HAPPENED".

Someone described it as less of a sequel and more "Dragon Ball's Greatest Hits"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77440: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:26:39 AM

Basically [up]. The Toppo fight isn't a parallel to anything, but since they want Vegeta to be thinking of his family they go "Hey, remember that awesome moment against Buu, well this is totally the same thing!", and have him do something that really doesn't make sense for the situation like it did against Buu, and also don't have him die with an explanation that doesn't make sense for the sake of nostalgia.

edited 5th Feb '18 11:28:30 AM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77441: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:28:20 AM

Well, occasionally they get it right. The moment I think is a good example is when Gohan blocks the shot aimed at Piccolo and Piccolo has a mental image of Nail and Kami. Really good vibes from that moment.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#77442: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:36:53 AM

Why don't characters use new attacks in this series? Besides nostalgia. Maybe coming up with abilities isn't a Toriyama thing.

35 year old white man.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77443: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:38:04 AM

FINAL SHINE ATTACK!!!!!!

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77444: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:40:57 AM

I mean, about 95% of the attacks in the later half of the series are just "differently coloured Ki Blast".

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#77445: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:44:38 AM

And to be honest aren't transformations just doing the same thing. But the characters are just said to be stronger? :p

35 year old white man.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77446: Feb 5th 2018 at 11:53:36 AM

Even just "really big ki blast" can seem epic if done right, that's basically all the first Final Flash was, but it was still a cool moment. Now they just have Vegeta scream "FINAL FLASH!!" after ever other attack. I don't know how that's supposed to hype anyone up.

edited 5th Feb '18 11:53:55 AM by LSBK

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#77447: Feb 5th 2018 at 12:00:04 PM

[up][up][up] & [up][up] While that’s true, Toriyama had a gift for wrapping them up in context sub that each new attack felt impressive. Super Saiyan transformations, especially, had a very well plotted progression over Z.

Like, the only real difference between the Burning Attack and the Big Bang Attack (which, in turn, is one of the least distinctive attacks in the series) is the one man slap fight Trunks does at the beginning of his, but the context makes it feel like more than just another energy blast and gives it identity.

Super’s problem is that instead of giving something that appears fresh in new context, they repeat what we’ve already seen but without the context that made them interesting, cheapening them overall. With transformations, I’ve felt for a while that Super just uses and discards them without giving the current ones enough weight.

The Final Flash gets the worst of it by far (Vegeta uses it, what, five times in the TOP? Once just to cherry tap a weakling), but it’s everywhere. Even the new stuff is explicitly “the old stuff, but supposedly stronger” like Krillin officially having “more than one kienzan that homes” after it being in like every video game for years.

edited 5th Feb '18 12:02:08 PM by KnownUnknown

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#77448: Feb 5th 2018 at 12:00:27 PM

Just have Vegeta Big Bang Toppo out of the ring. It panders to nostalgia and doesn't involve Vegeta using an attack he doesn't really need to in that situation. Problem solved.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77449: Feb 5th 2018 at 12:44:21 PM

Roshi blew up the moon. That is a lot of wasted energy. Had he decided to go all out with his Max power Kamehameha he would have absolutely incinerated Goku, but he didn't, because he wasn't trying to kill him. There is a clear visual sign of this because Roshi didn't go into his buff form for their Kamehameha parry.

Yes, Goku had a speed advantage and an agility advantage, but in terms of sheer destructive force Roshi was way ahead of him. Roshi would also suffer in terms of speed and agility compared to Taopaipai, and would probably lose a pure-hand-to-hand duel, but I don't even see the Dodonpa countering the Max Kamehameha.

At the very least it's a 50/50 chance of who would win.

The wasted energy means nothing, because they fought evenly BEFORE he did it, and the fight didn't continue for long after he did (plus, Goku's hunger struck after that point anyway). He doesn't actually use that form in serious fights (which could use some explanation, but that's just OG DB for you).

It's like saying Kuririn is stronger than Piccolo because the Kienzan could potentially kill him if it landed. That one attack - that wasn't even proven strong enough to kill Goku - does not offset the entire rest of the fight.

Roshi would 100% be destroyed by Tao in hand to hand, that isn't up for debate because it's the only thing that matches what we are seen and told about their actual strengths. The max power Kamehameha is the only thing that is a maybe, but it's strength has never been proven and Roshi never actually tried using it in a fight. It's Informed Ability that it could kill Goku.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77450: Feb 5th 2018 at 12:47:56 PM

Roshi doesn't use that form in serious fights because the only really serious fight he has is with King Piccolo where the entire plan is to use the Mafuba. He was not trying to kill Goku, he was not trying to kill Tien. Tao was trying to kill Goku.

It blew up the moon. There is absolutely no way Goku is going to be able to stop it at that point.

Either way, I think I've sufficiently argued enough that Roshi's title of "most powerful under the heavens" is at least debatable, rather than being inconsistent, not least because Dragonball really doesn't start conflating all stats for a few more arcs (it has definitely started by the 23rd TB, possibly the 22nd).

edited 5th Feb '18 12:48:19 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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