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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77326: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:19:00 PM

No, but I do watch him.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#77327: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:20:27 PM

Which is odd, since every other bit of characterization from him has been focused on how much he loves justice and despises those who don't follow it. Actually, that pretty clearly explains his feelings towards Toppo throwing away his morals.

And yeah, manga Jiren is absolutely meant to be a reference to Superman. He flies the same iconic way, has similar motivations and personality, and even has similar speech patterns.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77328: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:25:33 PM

and after a while the funny gimmick fights began to be replaced by sheer grunting matches after Ginyu, really.

Gotenks vs Super Buu was pretty fun. Even if half of it was face palming at Gotenks being the stupidest person in the universe.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77329: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:26:16 PM

Eh, I'll give you that. Fat Buu's chocolate powers are also quite funny.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:26:39 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77330: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:26:24 PM

So Toriyama is a retard for not using space more?

I think it's a fine idea to establish the limits of space early, given that the origibal run of the series didn't last much longer than that.

Leaving it open would just allow lazier methods of escalation, as more powerful aliens come out of the woodwork to serve as antagonists. Sure it'd facilitate the franchize zombie it became, but I don't consider that to be something to aim for.

Freeza gives you aliens as an antagonist and a reason not to go back to that well after he is done. The series moved on.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77331: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:27:37 PM

Well, it means you can't have any more fancy space adventures. You just have the one, which is going to the most boring planet in the universe.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77332: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:28:08 PM

Who could Toriyama a retard for not using space more?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77333: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:28:58 PM

No its the most interesting planet in the universe cause there's only a handful with life.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77334: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:29:06 PM

I'm not sure how else using 'special mind' as a criticism is meant to be taken

[up][up][up] I don't find fancy space adventures that interesting as a DB concept

edited 4th Feb '18 7:30:18 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77335: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:31:12 PM

It's not considered normal thought process to go back to the basics...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77336: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:34:02 PM

I simply thought it was a terrible idea, since it means you have to force the escalation upward somehow. First it was androids, then it was the more plausable idea of having all the superpowerful genetics established previously mushed together, then you have more and more God stuff, and the supreme Kai is introduced and then the King of Hell. Not just a demon, the king of Hell.

There's no room for expansion. It's always locked in. I mean, the original Dragonball did this as well with Roshi, the first martial artist met, being introduced as the strongest in the world, and the Red Ribbon army, the first army fought, being introduced as the strongest in the world, and Taopaipai, the first assassin met, say it with me...

But this isn't as egregious as writing off the entirety of space in one go. Heck, it wasn't even necessary - if Freeza hadn't been specifically declared as the strongest in the universe he would still scare the shit out of everyone thanks to how intimidating he is, with his giant empire and his raw energy. This was just unnecessarily hogtying yourself.

By special mind I meant, a particular lack of imagination or a particular laziness in exploring the possibilities.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:39:20 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#77337: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:34:05 PM

Well, it means you can't have any more fancy space adventures. You just have the one, which is going to the most boring planet in the universe.

Sure you can. Just do what GT did and say "Actually, there are tons of strong guys in space! shhhhh don't think about it shhhhh"

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77338: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:35:45 PM

I don't think Goku deserves to win the Tournament of Power. Here's why:

  • He's taking it far less seriously than he should.
  • He wanted this tournament for the sake of fighting, but the tournament ends up costing lives. He shouldn't get satisfaction from something so serious
  • Vegeta has a far stronger and nobler motive for competing, since we know he wants to honor his promise and safe another universe at the least
  • Narrative-wise, it would be boring and predictable

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77339: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:36:42 PM

I would love Goku to not win, for some of those reasons you mentioned. I just find it hugely unlikely. Not impossible. Just a million to one odds.

Though barely anyone in this tournament has been taking it as seriously as they should.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:37:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77340: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:38:32 PM

Would it be predictable for Karrot to win? I mean, would it?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77341: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:38:41 PM

I'd say it's worse with early DB because they aren't actually consistent with that stuff and contradict it all the time

There is definitely room for expansion because expansion happens all the time. It just doesn't do so in a way that means we cobstantly start at the bottom and work up, and I am okay with that.

It'd be illogical to go from the best of one thing to the worst of another, then work your way up to the best of that to move on to the worst of what comes next. That's just padding, and even stranger escalation.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77342: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:38:59 PM

[up][up][up][up]

  • The first point applies to basically everyone.
  • Nothing about his idea actually calls for this, and he gets satisfaction from fighting either way.
  • I don't find Vegeta's motivations particularly noble. They're understandable, certainly, but not noble. You're also assuming that Vegeta wants to save Universe 6 when he has said no such thing. He has said he wants to save the Saiyans and Planet Sadala.
  • As has been said before, at this point Goku actually winning isn't the norm, it's the exception.

Not that I particularly need Goku to be the winner, since I figure things will basically go the same way no matter who it is.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:40:23 PM by LSBK

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77343: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:41:21 PM

I want Vegeta eliminated now.

Jiren better knock him the fuck out.

[up] He only wants to save the Saiyan's so its actually a pretty selfish motivation.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:41:56 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77344: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:43:07 PM

OG Dragonball isn't inconsistent with it. The people definitively stronger than Roshi were people no one was aware about (I reckon he was at least as powerful as TPP, and had not yet been introduced to Tien). We've never seen an earth army stronger than the Red Ribbon. Everyone thought Demon King Piccolo was long gone. Like, the same problems were still there, just less egrigious because the scale was smaller. But it wasn't inconsistent with it. If anything, the Cell Arc having this guy develop androids that are stronger than Super Saiyans is the most implausable thing in Dragon Ball.

There is definitely room for expansion because expansion happens all the time. It just doesn't do so in a way that means we cobstantly start at the bottom and work up, and I am okay with that. It'd be illogical to go from the best of one thing to the worst of another, then work your way up to the best of that to move on to the worst of what comes next. That's just padding, and even stranger escalation.

This is the problem, the constant linear escalation itself. You don't need to be in space all the time. You go to space, you beat Freeza, you go back to Earth. You don't say Freeza's the strongest alien ever, that way you leave the door open if you ever want to go back to space. You don't have the King of Hell be the first denizen of hell you fight, since that means that you can't introduce more denizens of Hell because they'd be no threat.

edited 4th Feb '18 7:50:01 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
GarnetRebeller96 Since: Nov, 2015
#77345: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:55:05 PM

I can't agree with the original series being only ok. That show tended to do a lot more with its characters, in regards to interaction and fighting. And everyone wasn't too dependent on Goku.

The human characters or anyone who isn't a Saiyan also didn't get reduced to fodder.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77346: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:57:37 PM

Well, not in tournaments...but otherwise they, yes, they did.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77347: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:58:33 PM

See, I don't think so.

Goku and Roshi were more or less even, and Goku jumped straight into going up against RR right after that fight. So when he fought Tao the first time, he wasn't that much than when he fought than when he fought Roshi, so the latter would have been stomped to paste.

Tien is shown to be as strong as a post Korrin Training, three years later (and that means more training) Goku. I'm assuming it's due to both Tao and Crane Hermit's training (he essentially had two masters, and the more masters you train with, the stronger you seem to get). Chiaoutzu, weak though he is, might have helped with that, as sparring partners tend to help as well.

I do agree that, while establishing things quickly was good, Toriyama also simultaneously shrunk things.

On the one hand, you can have more guys stronger than Frieza just popping up unless they are either from outside the known universe (such as Dabura, and later the TOP fighters), or just total freaks that no one expected (The androids and Cell), but it also means that space is pretty fracking empty because Frieza basically was the only dog in the yard. He kicked everyone else' ass offscreen and ruled over everything undisputed.

There are no other factions fighting against him, and there's no Evil Power Vacuum created by his defeat (and if there was, they'd be no threat because Goku would be more powerful than all of them).

I feel like by setting the bar so high all the time, Toriyama cuts off too many branches way too early. That being said, it hasn't stopped him from finding a way to create new threats, though it also leads to the heroes making really dumb mistakes in order to make these villains credible threats.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77348: Feb 4th 2018 at 7:58:40 PM

Goku and Roshi were far from even. Their battle was close - after Roshi had to waste the majority of his energy destroying the entire moon and then went on to win. Roshi was good enough to pressure Tien in their fight (though even before he gave up he would have clearly lost). I think Roshi fighting all out could have stood a pretty good chance against Taopaipai.

Also, as other people are pointing out, non-Goku characters were always fodder. Tien was once unable to beat Drum, who Goku one hit killed, for example. Same deal with Mummyman when he beat Yamcha and Goku defeated him handily.

edited 4th Feb '18 8:02:50 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77349: Feb 4th 2018 at 8:00:44 PM

[up][up] Ok, I agree that DB is actually pretty good, but the characters were treated no better lol. It was a lot worse in Z sure, but it had it's roots in the first series.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77350: Feb 4th 2018 at 8:02:22 PM

[up][up]They were both exhausted though...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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