Which is odd, since every other bit of characterization from him has been focused on how much he loves justice and despises those who don't follow it. Actually, that pretty clearly explains his feelings towards Toppo throwing away his morals.
And yeah, manga Jiren is absolutely meant to be a reference to Superman. He flies the same iconic way, has similar motivations and personality, and even has similar speech patterns.
So Toriyama is a retard for not using space more?
I think it's a fine idea to establish the limits of space early, given that the origibal run of the series didn't last much longer than that.
Leaving it open would just allow lazier methods of escalation, as more powerful aliens come out of the woodwork to serve as antagonists. Sure it'd facilitate the franchize zombie it became, but I don't consider that to be something to aim for.
Freeza gives you aliens as an antagonist and a reason not to go back to that well after he is done. The series moved on.
It's not considered normal thought process to go back to the basics...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I simply thought it was a terrible idea, since it means you have to force the escalation upward somehow. First it was androids, then it was the more plausable idea of having all the superpowerful genetics established previously mushed together, then you have more and more God stuff, and the supreme Kai is introduced and then the King of Hell. Not just a demon, the king of Hell.
There's no room for expansion. It's always locked in. I mean, the original Dragonball did this as well with Roshi, the first martial artist met, being introduced as the strongest in the world, and the Red Ribbon army, the first army fought, being introduced as the strongest in the world, and Taopaipai, the first assassin met, say it with me...
But this isn't as egregious as writing off the entirety of space in one go. Heck, it wasn't even necessary - if Freeza hadn't been specifically declared as the strongest in the universe he would still scare the shit out of everyone thanks to how intimidating he is, with his giant empire and his raw energy. This was just unnecessarily hogtying yourself.
By special mind I meant, a particular lack of imagination or a particular laziness in exploring the possibilities.
edited 4th Feb '18 7:39:20 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"I don't think Goku deserves to win the Tournament of Power. Here's why:
- He's taking it far less seriously than he should.
- He wanted this tournament for the sake of fighting, but the tournament ends up costing lives. He shouldn't get satisfaction from something so serious
- Vegeta has a far stronger and nobler motive for competing, since we know he wants to honor his promise and safe another universe at the least
- Narrative-wise, it would be boring and predictable
I would love Goku to not win, for some of those reasons you mentioned. I just find it hugely unlikely. Not impossible. Just a million to one odds.
Though barely anyone in this tournament has been taking it as seriously as they should.
edited 4th Feb '18 7:37:17 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Would it be predictable for Karrot to win? I mean, would it?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I'd say it's worse with early DB because they aren't actually consistent with that stuff and contradict it all the time
There is definitely room for expansion because expansion happens all the time. It just doesn't do so in a way that means we cobstantly start at the bottom and work up, and I am okay with that.
It'd be illogical to go from the best of one thing to the worst of another, then work your way up to the best of that to move on to the worst of what comes next. That's just padding, and even stranger escalation.
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- The first point applies to basically everyone.
- Nothing about his idea actually calls for this, and he gets satisfaction from fighting either way.
- I don't find Vegeta's motivations particularly noble. They're understandable, certainly, but not noble. You're also assuming that Vegeta wants to save Universe 6 when he has said no such thing. He has said he wants to save the Saiyans and Planet Sadala.
- As has been said before, at this point Goku actually winning isn't the norm, it's the exception.
Not that I particularly need Goku to be the winner, since I figure things will basically go the same way no matter who it is.
edited 4th Feb '18 7:40:23 PM by LSBK
OG Dragonball isn't inconsistent with it. The people definitively stronger than Roshi were people no one was aware about (I reckon he was at least as powerful as TPP, and had not yet been introduced to Tien). We've never seen an earth army stronger than the Red Ribbon. Everyone thought Demon King Piccolo was long gone. Like, the same problems were still there, just less egrigious because the scale was smaller. But it wasn't inconsistent with it. If anything, the Cell Arc having this guy develop androids that are stronger than Super Saiyans is the most implausable thing in Dragon Ball.
This is the problem, the constant linear escalation itself. You don't need to be in space all the time. You go to space, you beat Freeza, you go back to Earth. You don't say Freeza's the strongest alien ever, that way you leave the door open if you ever want to go back to space. You don't have the King of Hell be the first denizen of hell you fight, since that means that you can't introduce more denizens of Hell because they'd be no threat.
edited 4th Feb '18 7:50:01 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"Well, not in tournaments...but otherwise they, yes, they did.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.See, I don't think so.
Goku and Roshi were more or less even, and Goku jumped straight into going up against RR right after that fight. So when he fought Tao the first time, he wasn't that much than when he fought than when he fought Roshi, so the latter would have been stomped to paste.
Tien is shown to be as strong as a post Korrin Training, three years later (and that means more training) Goku. I'm assuming it's due to both Tao and Crane Hermit's training (he essentially had two masters, and the more masters you train with, the stronger you seem to get). Chiaoutzu, weak though he is, might have helped with that, as sparring partners tend to help as well.
I do agree that, while establishing things quickly was good, Toriyama also simultaneously shrunk things.
On the one hand, you can have more guys stronger than Frieza just popping up unless they are either from outside the known universe (such as Dabura, and later the TOP fighters), or just total freaks that no one expected (The androids and Cell), but it also means that space is pretty fracking empty because Frieza basically was the only dog in the yard. He kicked everyone else' ass offscreen and ruled over everything undisputed.
There are no other factions fighting against him, and there's no Evil Power Vacuum created by his defeat (and if there was, they'd be no threat because Goku would be more powerful than all of them).
I feel like by setting the bar so high all the time, Toriyama cuts off too many branches way too early. That being said, it hasn't stopped him from finding a way to create new threats, though it also leads to the heroes making really dumb mistakes in order to make these villains credible threats.
One Strip! One Strip!Goku and Roshi were far from even. Their battle was close - after Roshi had to waste the majority of his energy destroying the entire moon and then went on to win. Roshi was good enough to pressure Tien in their fight (though even before he gave up he would have clearly lost). I think Roshi fighting all out could have stood a pretty good chance against Taopaipai.
Also, as other people are pointing out, non-Goku characters were always fodder. Tien was once unable to beat Drum, who Goku one hit killed, for example. Same deal with Mummyman when he beat Yamcha and Goku defeated him handily.
edited 4th Feb '18 8:02:50 PM by Sigilbreaker26
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"![]()
They were both exhausted though...

No, but I do watch him.
"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"