I thought Saiyans being Always Chaotic Evil was more a cultural thing than biological. We know their old planet was destroyed, so at least one cataclysm may have reduced them to Stone Age barbarism where they needed their social darwinist philosophy to survive
That's probably a factor, but thanks to Planet Vegeta's high gravity and their zenkai ability they would likely be one of the strongest species in the galaxy, and when you have a biological advantage in terms of militarism you will tend towards militarism.
THE FIGHT WE'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR
It would make Caulifa and Kale fighting Super Saiyan God Goku a little more credible, and they were pretty much loaded up with transformations out the gate.
edited 3rd Feb '18 2:34:19 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!Pretend that Goku isn't a Super Saiyan Stallion and fighting Jiren actually tuckered him out. I could buy that SS-3 closes the gap just enough that they can punish a Tired!Super Saiyan God. We know Pissed!Super Saiyan Two Vegeta can at least stunlock Beerus.
We still don't know what the gap is between 3 and God. The only discernible difference in the film is "get wrecked neck-chopped by Beerus," and, "take several punches to the face from Beerus and throw a few of them back."
God is obviously better, but its power increase is so nebulous that the amount of damage Cale and Kaulifa were able to do to Goku during Episode 113 makes more sense to me if they're 3 rather than 2. At least that's the peak of their power up against an exhausted opponent.
And then it would feel less like, "Khalifa and Dale just didn't have enough time to push their way up the Super Saiyan tree," and then the decision to fuse would be more significant because it really was their last viable option.
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!When your argument hinges on a comparison to another ridiculous moment from the series, it's not a good argument. Besides, Beerus wasn't trying at all against Vegeta.
If Goku's so tired he shouldn't even be using God. The power is only nebulous because Super is so terribly inconsistent at everything, I wouldn't advocate for more than that. God should be ridiculously far above 3, if it's superior to even just Super Vegetto who is unfathomably far above 3.
As for them not having time to do it, I think you're making 3 out to be way easier to achieve than it should be. Yeah, they shouldn't have anywhere near enough time or training to achieve 3. So yeah, fusion was their last viable option anyway.
Also if Kafla had 3 in order to match Goku then he should really just stick to dodging until her energy runs out instead of finding a way to beat her.
edited 3rd Feb '18 3:46:44 PM by Saiga
Vegeta punched a Energy of Destruction really hard because of Nakama power
I'm done. Nothing can top this. Nothing, this is the epitome of generic shonen literature, I can't face it anymore.
By the way, i love the fan art.
Jiren smiled.
edited 3rd Feb '18 5:10:21 PM by Tomodachi
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.Even if Beerus wasn't trying, it was still enough to push him back. In comparison to every other time when he wasn't trying and nobody could touch him, let alone phase him.
I'm not saying 3 makes them fare any better, but two Super Saiyan Three's managing to harass Goku when he's tired is an easier sell than a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Savage doing it. I see no detriment to altering Episode 113 by giving them Super Saiyan 3 - it only makes their transformations and eventual fusion more sequential, and emotionally satisfying, because they've gone as far as their Saiyan biology can take them, at least without a ritual or Godbamacare to power them up further.
With the Universe 6 Saiyans already being abnormal/inconsistent when it comes to power-scaling, I doubt I can be underestimating how much time/training it takes to learn Super Saiyan 3 because:
- it took Goten and Trunks maybe a week in the ROSAT to learn how to do it
- we don't know how long it took, or what conditions were required for Goku to learn it
- and Kale and Caulifa were already blowing through the other stages, soI don't see why 3 would be any different
In regards to Goku not using the form if he really is that tired, Goku has made poor decisions in regards to his own stamina before. It's not always about what makes the most external sense that makes this series work. Even if it was, maybe Goku intended to use God to finish the fight quickly, but Kale and Caulifa prove to be more resilient than expected and just won't stay down. note
Would have been infinitely funnier if Goku was purposefully running the clock dodging all of her crosses, roundhouses, and beam spams just to make her burn out before finishing her off with the Kamehameha to the face. note
Any instance of Goku being tactical instead of brute-forcing things is welcome.
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!No, because when you're literally using a lower percentage of your power it means nothing when an attack pushes you back. It doesn't put Vegeta anywhere near the level that Beerus used against God Goku.
I'm not saying that 3 makes the fight worse, it just doesn't make the fight good enough to justify it. What you should fix is removing God from the equation.
Gotenks achieved it in two weeks, he's a fusion beyond the individual Saiyan girls. And Goku found that amazing, because it took him years of training to do so. So yeah... Kale and Caulifla achieving it within literal minutes is of course bullshit of the highest caliber. It's not even remotely comparable to a fusion like Gotenks doing it.
And Goku working on the flaws in his UI is better for the eventual 'completion' of UI than not needing to because he can just exploit Kafla's flaws. The development of UI is more important than that one fight.
edited 3rd Feb '18 5:17:45 PM by Saiga
Okay I'm going to put a moratorium on that right now. Where on earth is Jiren in anyway similar to Superman from what we've seen so far? He's just a buff generic superhero and his team is based on super sentai. He's not the last survivor of a planet. He doesn't have a secret identity. He doesn't wear a cape. He doesn't have Superman's iconic superpowers. He doesn't have a bigass symbol on his chest. He doesn't have a personality. Manga!Jiren is better, but even then he doesn't particularly resemble Superman as much he does Batman, with his somewhat loner attitude and having an adamant no-kill policy.
17 really should have been out this episode, I have no idea why they didn't. And yea, it makes Toppo's transformation entirely pointless since he didn't take anyone out. Vegeta overpowering him through Nakama power is supreme bullshit, but then he survives his suicide attack just because lol.
God this episode is lol.
And wow Jiren, you're a fucking jerk.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.The only thing about any version of Jiren that has resembled Superman to me was the line about flying being faster than taking a ship. That's pretty much it.
This song needs more love.

In before Heroes decides to give to bite the bullet. Poor GT Pan.