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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76601: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:17:51 PM

Oh yeah, in the English speech it's definitely taken up to eleven. But it's not like Goku never did any speechifying in the original.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#76602: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:20:23 PM

Just making a speech and being messianic are not the same thing.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#76603: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:30:57 PM

I think the point is that making speeches isn't exactly a Goku thing. But then again, Goku wasn't exaclty in his right state of mind at the time

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76604: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:38:30 PM

Ironic.

Anyway, here is a point of discussion from Mozilla Vulpix. She doesn't like Vegito, and surprisingly neither Mistare Fusion (Although by his commentary, he is rather cinical with the last two arcs of Z, but likes Gotenks). I entered into a small discussion with someone who says the anime of Super ruined Vegito for not being an Invincible Hero (And because it follows "Toriyama intent", whatever the hell that means)

While both versions of Vegito Blue found themselves a bit flawed, I found the manga version to be, well, boring than the anime version. In the manga, Vegito archives nothing other than mock Zamasu who already killed everyone and is quickly disregarded to give Goku a powerup, while in the anime, Vegito struggles with Zamasu while humanity still lives... but isn't disregarded for a Goku powerup who comes out of nowhere, while the anime Vegito is disregarded for a power that comes out of nowhere... For Trunks.

Yeah, both versions are flawed, but giving someone not named Goku the win, expecially the one whose god damn world was destroyed by the two morons, at least I can give the anime a slight pass. The manga version is just Goku Time all over again, with an underwhelming version of Zamasu.

And even then, when I re-read the series last year, I sort of speed-read Vegito scenes. He wasn't as entertaining as Gotenks vs Super Buu to me, and Gohan got shafted for Vegeta, which pissed me off. Something good came out of it (I freaking love Mr Satan saving the world and Fat Buu helping out against Buu), but Vegito was just part of an annoying mini-arc with Super Buu.

edited 30th Jan '18 4:40:40 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76605: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:39:33 PM

The TFS joke about the hair colour does point out that Goku just knew he was in Super Saiyan when he went it for the first time without having anyone to point that out to him, so I'd guess it induces some sort of ecstasy while you're in it.

[up] The problem with the Trunks thing is that I should like that he finally, finally gets a win after having to deal with so much shit (I don't care so much about Goku not getting it as I do someone appropriate getting it). However, for that to happen, a lot of bullshit has to happen first (calling the spirit bomb out of nowhere? making it into a sword? sort-of killing Merged Zamasu with it?) and the way the arc ends really, really undercuts the emotional high from his victory anyway.

I've said before I don't care enough about DB's idiotic power level system to really give a rat's ass when they push it, but this is beyond the pale even for me, especially when lumped in with the idiotic Super Saiyan Rage form (because Super Saiyans have never raged before, that's definitely adding something new). It's just, if you wanted this ending set it up a little for god's sakes. You're not being constrained by leftover rubbish from Z this is all new problems you've created in your own arc.

Quite frankly, given that they defuse anyway, Goku and Vegeta should have just dancefused into Gogeta. That's not as powerful so I think people would have bought that better and it wouldn't have required a retcon for the earrings.

edited 30th Jan '18 4:48:14 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76606: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:42:03 PM

[up] Well I assume your certainly feeling something when transformed.

Also there is a distinct difference between Gotenks & Vegito.

Gotenks is an incompetent braggart while Vegito is a competent braggart.

edited 30th Jan '18 4:42:16 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76607: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:47:27 PM

As I said, both sagas and both Vegito Blue are flawed, but at least the Future Trunks anime doesn't repeat the same boring "I already kill everyone, so let's fuse to mock this guy" like they did with Super Buu. Besides, when Buu did it, it was shocking! In the manga, Zamasu kills everyone without too much of a thought, while the anime, as angry everyone reacted to it, at least made the effort for suspense and a personal connection to be made when he did it.

AS I SAID, both sagas are flawed, THEY ARE, but the anime has more going for it than the manga version.

edited 30th Jan '18 4:48:43 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76608: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:49:44 PM

Gotenks also didn't have the power gap over Super Boo that Vegetto did.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#76609: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:50:10 PM

I love how people, to this day, insist that Future Trunks won anything just because he destroyed Merged Zamasu's body. Even though all that did was make the guy even more powerful.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76610: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:52:14 PM

[up] Yeah, this is pretty much the biggest problem with that moment after the whole Spirit Bomb Sword D X M thing.

(Though in fairness to F. Trunks, no one had any idea what would happen if you killed an immortal.)

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76611: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:52:56 PM

A good villain indeed.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76612: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:53:36 PM

He makes him more powerful in both versions.

But the anime kinda beefed up how crazy said power up was, with Zamasu being an immediate threat, while the manga merely said what he could do.

One Strip! One Strip!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#76613: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:54:38 PM

Spirit Bomb Sword is a thing...let that sink in.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76614: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:54:48 PM

The saga quality started to decrease the moment Super Saiyan Rage appeared, but even then, I found Trunks getting the kill a satisfying moment for me. The next part, however, angered everyone with a good reason.

[up][up] As stupid as Zamasu becoming the universe is, I found the idea to be more "godly" and terryfing than the manga version. Since Dragon Ball is a series that says you can defeat god with punching them really hard, and the God of Destruction is basically a Greek-God, I found Infinite Zamasu to be a cosmic terror rather appropriate for something you can't beat.

Doesn't save the moment from angering me, but at least made Zamasu more of a cosmic threat than Majin Buu ever was.

edited 30th Jan '18 4:57:21 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76615: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:56:04 PM

What angered everyone? The fact that he got a new identical universe anyway?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76616: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:56:53 PM

I don't know why they didn't just bite the bullet and give him Super Saiyan God. He's powerful enough. Vegeta got it without even needing a ritual (which we all overlook and is still fairly bullshit). Like, Future Trunks was sparring with Goku while Goku was in SSJ 3 wasn't he? When he first came back?

edited 30th Jan '18 4:57:37 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76617: Jan 30th 2018 at 4:59:30 PM

A friend of mine and I discussed it, as is a geniune Plot Hole, almost bordering on Idiot Plot. I can see Beerus and Whis refusing to train Trunks in order to strenght himself because of him breaking the taboo of the gods, and SSJ God has a short lifespan without mastering it, but even then, the room of spirit and time and Vegeta already having it fixes that.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#76618: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:01:41 PM

See what happens when you let characters that aren't Goku do anything significant, the story becomes shit. So the lesson here is "Just wait for Goku" :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76619: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:02:37 PM

Well, Gohan doing something significant at the end of the Cell saga is a defining moment for the franchise so I'm not sure if your theory holds up.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76620: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:03:31 PM

Yeah, and remembered how he went insane with that power and got Goku killed?

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76621: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:04:27 PM

In fairness, Gohan's was only one of the many moments of stupidity that lead up to that moment.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#76622: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:05:57 PM

That describes the Cell saga pretty well.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76623: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:06:01 PM

Sadistic = Insane?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76624: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:07:47 PM

I don't know why they didn't just bite the bullet and give him Super Saiyan God.

Because his hair colour would be the same! That's why!

I loved the Spirit Sword when it happened, despite knowing it was total bullshit (just because I liked seeing a new application of the concept of gathering energy from other lifeforms). It's totally dumb, but I just don't care, and I admit it.

I just can't fanthom why Toriyama did that. You literally rendered the entirety of Trunks actions in both this arc, and the one before completely pointless. All his efforts, all his struggles, all his sacrifices are now irrelevant, because with the exception of one person, everyone he's fought for is gone, and when he dies, he won't even be able to see them in heaven. They'll all be different people.

Why would anyone think this was a good way to end the arc?

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#76625: Jan 30th 2018 at 5:07:50 PM

I wonder if it would have been possible to use the Mafuba on Wallpaper Zamasu.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

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