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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#76226: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:14:51 PM

[up][up] And that is the crux of where I think the "good fit" thing comes from. Gohan remaining the lead logically would've fundamentally changed the way Toriyama would've needed to approach the story and I get the feeling that he just didn't want to change that aspect.

edited 25th Jan '18 5:15:24 PM by Lionheart0

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76227: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:15:18 PM

The importance of a good supporting cast there.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#76228: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:17:58 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not at all saying every plot would then end anti-climatically, just that plots would need to progress based on things other than the protagonist allowing them to happen, which can be like a million different ways. And then show how the pragmatism at least averts a much worse situation.

I'm not sure how that would be boring.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#76229: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:19:32 PM

Maybe that's another issue for why Gohan wasn't a "good fit" then. Toriyama liked a main character who wouldn't do those things (all the time).

I get you mean that shouldn't happen all the time, although, actually, how often did Goku let people just power up completely when the world was at stake and the like?

edited 25th Jan '18 5:21:10 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#76230: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:20:30 PM

That's what I mean. I think he started relying too much on Goku (or Vegeta) allowing situations to get worse based on shaky reasoning.

And that gets old. Especially if there's no end goal in mind with these flaws.

edited 25th Jan '18 5:20:53 PM by Saiga

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76231: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:23:46 PM

Sounds like he's really not trying then.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#76232: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:46:20 PM

Sounds like Toriyama is a bad writer, more like.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76233: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:49:37 PM

[up][up]

Well, he has admitted to being a lazy bum...who can crank out a weeks worth of material in a few days, but still.

That's what I mean. I think he started relying too much on Goku (or Vegeta) allowing situations to get worse based on shaky reasoning.[[/quoteblock

Agreed. [[quoteblock]]And that gets old. Especially if there's no end goal in mind with these flaws.

This too, as we know he has no intention of letting them grow out of these traits. Although Vegeta seems like he's far more pragmatic now than he used to be. I get the feeling he'd have killed Frieza before the fight escalated like it did if he'd gone first...which is exactly why Goku went first.

Edit: Huh. Even though I meant to respond to [up][up], my post ended up going pretty well as a rebuttal to Arha's post.

Good work Arha. I knew you'd make the perfect sidekick for Handsome Rob.

From this day forward, you are moderately impressive Arha.tongue

edited 25th Jan '18 5:51:04 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76234: Jan 25th 2018 at 6:04:55 PM

If he wants to avoid having characters power up to create tension, why not just have characters start that powerful to begin with?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#76235: Jan 25th 2018 at 6:15:42 PM

Toriyama falling back on Goku does feel like he wasn't comfortable writing for another main character, so he just fell back on what he knows best.

He really doesn't seem to branch out a lot outside of what he knows, which sucks because it makes his writing incredibly stale after a while and probably contributes to why Goku feels so...yea. He still writes Goku as if he's still 12-15 years old at times rather than an adult.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#76236: Jan 25th 2018 at 6:51:20 PM

Could also explain why he felt Goku was "too heroic" in Z and overcorrected him for Super.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76237: Jan 25th 2018 at 7:07:25 PM

Uh, mental age doesn't have anything to do with heroics.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76238: Jan 25th 2018 at 7:10:42 PM

Alright I just calculated & the dub is currently on episode 47 while the current episode is 124, Jesus.

Meaning it will take 77 weeks to catch up.

So when Super ends the dub can have time to catch up unless we do get a new anime in less that time.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#76239: Jan 25th 2018 at 7:23:20 PM

I get that Toriyama went back on making Gohan the main character because he decided that Goku was better for the role, but has he ever mentioned why he decided that?

I think it was something about Gohan not really earning the protagonist role or something. Look at the Buu Arc where the reason he would have beaten Super Buu after years of slacking off (if not for the absorption thing) would have been sitting in place for a few hours and having someone just give him ultimate power.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#76240: Jan 25th 2018 at 7:44:13 PM

That's twice now that someone has assumed it to be the reason, but where did it come from?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#76242: Jan 25th 2018 at 8:31:40 PM

Goku literally beats King Piccolo by drinking a Dues Ex Machina, but people are going to give Gohan shit just because he gets his power unlocked?

So it's ok for Goku to take shortcuts, but not Gohan?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76243: Jan 25th 2018 at 8:43:23 PM

That's really weird of a shortcut?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#76244: Jan 25th 2018 at 8:44:21 PM

I mean, I don't think many people actually liked that either. But, as TFS said, "Nobody watched Dragon Ball!", so it's not as big a deal.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#76245: Jan 25th 2018 at 8:45:59 PM

@ randomness4: Well, Frost isn't a Hero Antagonist and seems to be in it for himself, though you could argue part of him does want to protect Universe 6 while profiting from it. Ribrianne's crew is Ambiguously Evil though she could just be a Hero with an F in Good. We don't know the background of a lot of characters, so some of the fighters may be villains who want to save their own hides and/or think universal destruction is horrible.

Universe 11 however is the one team where everyone is a Hero Antagonist, by virtue of being part of a superhero team. There's a good chance that there are villains who would've been useful in the tournament, but they refused to believe villains would be help

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76246: Jan 25th 2018 at 8:51:19 PM

I should've said "most", ya see? That fixes everything.

I wouldn't assume many of the fighters are good or evil, but in this context the fighters we don't know are just neither.

edited 25th Jan '18 8:52:55 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#76247: Jan 25th 2018 at 9:25:41 PM

Drinking the Ultra Divine Water almost killed Goku. Even after drinking it he nearly lost to King Piccolo.

Gohan had a tantrum and beat up Raditz, had a tantrum and beat up Freeza, had a tantrum and beat up Cell, sat still for several hours, found out he was the strongest Saiyan alive, and beat up Majin Boo, who then had a tantrum and beat up Gohan.

edited 25th Jan '18 9:28:32 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#76248: Jan 25th 2018 at 9:29:08 PM

You know when Cell killed Future Trunks? I don't think it's ever explained why he hit him with a death beam instead of Gohan or Vegeta. I like to think that it's because he hates Trunks more than anyone except Gohan, since he killed the androids of his time period and forced him to rely on a time machine to absorb them. Absorbing the androids and becoming perfect was literally the meaning of life for him, Trunks would've ruined that for him if he didn't leave his time machine

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#76249: Jan 25th 2018 at 9:29:58 PM

Yeah, let's forget the fact that all it did was catch raditz off guard, and everything else you mentioned was preceded by months/years of training.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76250: Jan 25th 2018 at 9:33:38 PM

[up][up] Heh sht that makes sense.

He always acts so cordial though. tongue

[up] He also never beat up Frieza either. Got good hits in sure but saying he got beaten up is exaggeration.

edited 25th Jan '18 9:34:08 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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