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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76201: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:14:47 PM

Goku was like that ever since... I'd say the King Piccolo arc, when he drank the Ultra Divine Water.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76202: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:26:50 PM

Indeed.

I mean, he's had the hard work of all the other characters mean jack shit quite often. He gave Goku the Ultra Miracle Water in the Piccolo Arc (and a good bulk of Goku's power comes from his Saiyan Biology, even though he does train like crazy).

Hell, even Goku has had moments where his training and hard work weren't enough. He got massacred by Vegeta despite the time learning the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb, and he couldn't even touch Frieza until he unlocked a random racial trait of his race that had fallen into legend.

I'm gonna agree that he just didn't know (or want to figure out) how to write someone besides Goku as the lead. He's always fallen back on certain character archetypes when push came to shove and this was no different.

He's got the ability to branch out (as Super has shown), but when push comes to shove, he just prefers doing certain things.

One Strip! One Strip!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#76203: Jan 25th 2018 at 3:55:55 PM

How does Super show he has the ability to branch out? Super's thing is being more of the same, now with added nostalgia.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76204: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:07:50 PM

Well, he's been trying new scenarios (Black and Zamasu are different villains from what he's done previously, and the current arc is a massive battle royal rather than a one on one fight).

He also brought back a previous villain and actually played the return seriously, whereas if you're a former bad guy who shows up in dragon ball, it's usually to show how much you are So Last Season and you didn't level up enough.

Now, you can argue the execution has been lacking, but he's tried to do some different stuff. Hell, we have a straight up Hero Antagonist in Jiren, even if the execution once again is poor.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#76205: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:15:36 PM

On the whole "Goku vs Gohan as the lead" talk goes, I'd like to think Toriyama's decision came down to the idea that Gohan was the more reactionary of the two.Gohan, as we he was being written in the Buu Saga at least, wasn't really the one to take the initiative with his goals.

Now, he could have tweaked the aspect, but he went back to "what worked" previously instead.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:16:51 PM by Lionheart0

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76206: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:16:19 PM

Well, neither is Goku either. He only beats up people when they come to him, essentially. The only exception is Namek, which still isn't self-motivated since it's a result of the Saiyan Saga.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:17:12 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76207: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:16:52 PM

Jillen is a Hero Antagonist...?

Wouldn't that literally apply to every not from 7 Universe?

No one participating is necessarily evil.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#76208: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:18:54 PM

[up][up] Goku entire schtick though was wanting to get stronger. Pre-Z he was all about traveling the world, and him doing that is what led into the various arcs starting. Compare that to Gohan who actually had to be blackmailed into taking part in the World Tournament arc.

Not saying one is inherently better than the other, just that I can get Toriyama's rationale if that was what made him want to go back to Goku.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:19:14 PM by Lionheart0

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#76209: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:19:43 PM

Gohan is pretty much the antithesis to a typical Shonen hero.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#76210: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:21:01 PM

Honestly, that's why he'd have been great.

We need more antithesis' to the typical dumbass hot blooded shonen hero if you ask me.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76211: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:24:34 PM

[up] Amen brother.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#76212: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:25:19 PM

Eh, depends on how they're atypical.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#76213: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:32:05 PM

Really all I ask is that their not functionally mentally disabled.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:32:22 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#76214: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:33:30 PM

I agree to an extent but a Shonen hero who hates fighting would get rather tiresome.

This song needs more love.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76215: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:34:05 PM

[up][up]Well, a lot of them are more impulsive than actually dumb; i.e. they fight by brawling and improvising rather than strategising.

The only outright dumb shonen hero I can think of is Natsu... and well... yeah.

I can name smart moments for nearly every other shonen hero out there.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:34:34 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#76216: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:39:37 PM

I agree to an extent but a Shonen hero who hates fighting would get rather tiresome.

I've seen the concept done well, actually.

The trick is to not make said hero angsty over it. They do what needs to be done, recognizing it as a grim necessity, but if they had their way they'd live in peace. Basically Gohan except they keep up their training and continue growing stronger, in other words.

I'll grant you it's a bit of a rare characterization for a shounen protag, but it can work.

edited 25th Jan '18 4:40:13 PM by DarkHunter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76217: Jan 25th 2018 at 4:58:33 PM

I agree to an extent but a Shonen hero who hates fighting would get rather tiresome.

I dunno... the idea of a hero who hates fighting but keeps getting thrown into fights regardless sounds like it would either be dramatic or hilarious.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76218: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:02:28 PM

Well, the trick is you need to find a way to have that and not have the hero be solely reactionary. Like, maybe they're an Adventurer Archeologist who has to kill giant spiders and stone demons to find the Lost Tomb of the Old Gods or the Barrow of the Green Knight, stuff like that.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#76219: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:02:38 PM

Or unintentionally hilarious despite drama...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#76220: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:03:41 PM

[up][up] I keep imagining, like, the opposite of One Punch Man, where the hero hates to fight but is recognized as a great hero by teammates/other people/etc and thus is expected to deal with problems.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#76221: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:04:46 PM

Aren't there protagonists like that already?

"Mai waifu."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#76222: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:04:48 PM

[up][up] So you're saying that instead of Gohan the main character of the series going forward should have been Mr. Satan?

edited 25th Jan '18 5:04:55 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#76223: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:06:08 PM

Tsuna from Hitman Reborn is like that to my recollection.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#76224: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:10:13 PM

A shonen MC who hates fighting is a fine concept.

Hell, the story could easily lean on that in DB for Gohan's characterization if it had wanted to.

Goku is literally a threat to peace because he likes fighting. The fact that Gohan doesn't enjoy it to that extent would allow for a characterization where he doesn't let villains power up, or complete their plans, etc. Like Future Trunks - quickly dispatches Cold and Freeza, destroys the Androids with no fuss and BEFORE Cell can get to them, then doesn't give Cell much chance to put up a fight either. His experiences made him much more pragmatic, and Gohan could also be a pragmatic character because of his distaste for fighting.

Goku looks for fights. Gohan looks to end them.

Boo: So, hot-shot, you want to fight Majin Boo?
Gohan: Fight you? No. I want to kill you.

That's how you characterize Gohan. Unfortunately, Gohan is also written as allowing his opponents to power up or gain opportunities to do so, because Toriyama often uses that as a crutch to add tension. Characterizing Gohan differently from his father would require letting go of that crutch.

edited 25th Jan '18 5:10:59 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#76225: Jan 25th 2018 at 5:12:35 PM

I mean, all of that just sounds really boring. It's nice to see characters like that in contrast to other characters, but things ending like that over and over is just boring.

Of course, you can still have the character try and stop things early only for things to happen to not go that way. You Can't Thwart Stage One and all. But even that might have the affect of making the hero looking incompetent after awhile.

edited 25th Jan '18 5:14:10 PM by LSBK


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