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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75976: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:43:50 PM

Except Toriyama didn't really try and tie real world biology to it. He introduced a fictional biological concept, to his fictional species. Super Saiyan was never portrayed as "mystical" in nature to begin with.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75977: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:46:54 PM

Well, Super Saiyan was originally sort-of legendary.

All this S-cell malarky does is ruin the mystique.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75978: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:48:55 PM

Heh just like Star Wars. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75979: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:49:05 PM

The "mystique" went away as soon as it became clear it was something that potentially any Saiyan can do. At this point in time it's meaningless.

Saiyan biology and behavior has always had a bunch of weird features and mechanics to it, Super Saiyan is just another one.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75980: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:54:07 PM

Except Toriyama didn't really try and tie real world biology to it. He introduced a fictional biological concept, to his fictional species. Super Saiyan was never portrayed as "mystical" in nature to begin with.
I find the "legendary warrior that shows up every 10000 years" pretty mystical. Also, genetic inheritance and cells are both very real biological concepts with some very clear science attached to it. Toriyama threw these terms around to justify his writing, and messed it up.

I mean, why not organelles instead of cells? I can totally buy S-organelles being part of a Sayian's cellular biology that can be transferred through sperm.

edited 21st Jan '18 3:54:38 PM by Kayeka

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75981: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:55:41 PM

Except it was never "warrior that shows up every 1000 years" that was a mistranslation. The legend was that the last one was from a 100 years ago. Again, as soon as it was shown that Super Saiyan was a thing that was actually possible, they never pretended as if it wasn't possible for all Saiyans.

It's been brought up before, but the fandom has always treated Super Saiyan as something much more mystical and mysterious than the series itself has.

edited 21st Jan '18 3:56:50 PM by LSBK

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75982: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:56:16 PM

Well, potentially all Saiyans, except the only Saiyans who were around were both exceptional (Goku and Vegeta). Then there were the three Half-Saiyans, one who had extreme trouble with it (Gohan) and one who gets possibly the best unlocking scene in the series for base SSJ (F. Trunks).

Now, Gohan and K. Trunks do make it a bit less special, sure. But that's no reason to double down on it being less special.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75983: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:58:16 PM

I can imagine in a purely hypothetical future arc if they did a Saiyan Resurrection/Invasion Arc with more than 2 Saiyan's this time they'll have all of them unlock Super Saiyan.

But again that's purely hypothetical.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75984: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:58:43 PM

Future Trunks' unlocking is anime only. Manga he had it at a young age, before Gohan died.

It wasn't special.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75985: Jan 21st 2018 at 3:59:45 PM

Oh, then the anime did it way fucking better then.

I shall revise my opinion: SSJ was really special moment when Goku got it but it then became the same thing over and over again really fast and all S-cells are doing is hammering in that Gohan going SSJ 2 was basically the last really narratively satisfying powerup in the series.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:02:36 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75986: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:01:16 PM

[up]Yeah, basically the entire flashback was done better in the anime, with Future Gohan getting a nice last hurrah as opposed to being unceremoniously killed off-screen.

But seriously, "specialness" never really bothered me too much. It's the really bad explanation.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:02:02 PM by Kayeka

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75987: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:01:20 PM

I mean, I'd agree the History of Trunks' scene was great, but that doesn't change that it's more at odds with how achieving Super Saiyan is done.

Once the right conditions are set it really doesn't seem that hard.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75988: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:01:21 PM

I disagree, it works as an individual product but does not mesh with the seriee as a whole.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75989: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:02:19 PM

Its way more dramatic for Future Trunks to unlock the transformation from tragedy & rage then just always having it.

Its actually interesting.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75990: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:03:48 PM

History of Trunks is right up there with Bardock Father of Goku as the really good side stories that help flesh out the Dragonball world and the expanded Dragonball canon would be much, much poorer for their loss.

Also, both probably have some of the best character work in the series.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:04:47 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75991: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:04:12 PM

But seriously, "specialness" never really bothered me too much. It's the really bad explanation.

It's only a bad explanation if you decide to confine Saiyan biology and reproduction to real world things. That in itself is a mistake on your part.

I'm not arguing that Toriyama isn't bad with real world biology, I'm saying that his world isn't real, and he can make the roles for his fictional races biological processes however he wants. That he might use some real life concepts, like cells, doesn't change that.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:06:49 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75992: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:04:50 PM

The fandom has always worshiped the Super Saiyan form more that the series did.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75993: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:05:00 PM

Yeah, but it doesn't work well for the series to require every transformation to be so dramatic.

Gohan and Vegeta didn't have that. When you compare to the rest of the franchise, F Trunks becomes an outlier and then looks kind of shitty for it.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75994: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:05:51 PM

[up][up][up]If the guy said "magic" I would've been okay. If he came up with a semi-plausible scientific explanation with fictional elements, I'd be okay. This shit doesn't work if any of the people involved in it are human. Which they are.

No explanation would have been way better. Which is what we had until Toriyama decided to open his gap weeks ago.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:09:48 PM by Kayeka

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75995: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:07:32 PM

[up][up] "Oh no, if we have this in the series suddenly a bunch of our other powerups look shitty and not narratively satisfying!"

Quite frankly, I'm not sure I agree with the logic of hammering down good emotional moments just so pedestrian moments aren't overshadowed.

By that logic Gohan should have gone SSJ 2 with no problem since Vegeta and Goku reached that stage off screen between Cell and Buu.

Like, I appreciate a series having consistency, but you don't try to make your good moments consistent with your bland ones, you try to make your bland ones better.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:11:31 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75996: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:09:23 PM

[up][up]Despite what Zamasu may tell you, Saiyans are not, in fact, human.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#75997: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:10:35 PM

(I hold a degree in Biology, I know most of the stuff I say in the topic is far from common knowledge)

Sperm is just a DNA USB than an egg uses to have an entire genome rather than just an unpaired half, and thus starts growing into an embryo upon getting that in.

On the other hand, there is plenty of epigenetic stuff and gene expresion regulation that would make Trunks and Goten getting Super Saiyan more likely.

A gene whose expression is blocked, but stress and power level compromise that blocking mechanism, and, once broken, it is irreversible and affects the whole organism (incluiding germinal line cells), for example, would be more in line with what we know of biology. As would Cell being genetically engineered rather than being an outright chimeric being. But oh well, not every writer is a scientist.

By the way, interspecific breeding is FAR more common that it seems, and far more sucessful as well (in fact, it seems to be very important in the grand scheme of evolution). We tend to think on terms of neat boxes and pedigrees, but nature doesn't care about our categories, and purity of blood is endogamy and that is counterproductive (ask Charles II of Spain about the benefits of pureblood). Just an example: Polar bears are dealing with global warming by breeding with grizzly bears. Their descendants are completely fertile, and thrive better in the current environment than "pure" polar bears. However, due to not being "pure", some environmental scientists advocated for killing the hybrids, to avoid "polluting" the genepool. Evolution just means species change as the environment does, and trying to keep things static is being ignorant of the mechanics behind nature, even if you have a Ph D after your name.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75998: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:10:45 PM

[up][up]But humans are, and they are involved in the process of producing the half-saiyans that caused this mess in the first place.

A gene whose expression is blocked, but stress and power level compromise that blocking mechanism, and, once broken, it is irreversible and affects the whole organism (incluiding germinal line cells), for example, would be more in line with what we know of biology. As would Cell being genetically engineered rather than being an outright chimeric being. But oh well, not every writer is a scientist.

Now see, that's the kind of explanation I could get behind.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:14:29 PM by Kayeka

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75999: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:14:28 PM

[up][up][up] That's not what I'm arguing at all. I don't care about the other moments being 'pedestrian', I was saying Trunks looks bad for what others did so easily.

That doesn't apply to Gohan because it took Goku and Vegeta 7 years of training from the Cell arc to surpass him. And Vegeta only surpassed the rusty Gohan.

I'm fine with emotional moments when they make sense and fit in the greater context, which F Trunks' doesn't but Gohan's does.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#76000: Jan 21st 2018 at 4:15:38 PM

[up]So, what exactly is wrong with Trunks being a bit of a wimp before his forced character development? Like, just asking, I'm a bit vague on the details of the matter.

edited 21st Jan '18 4:15:54 PM by Kayeka


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