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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75901: Jan 21st 2018 at 6:58:36 AM

Sure, Toriyama did set things up for Gohan to replace Goku, and then he backed out from that. And yeah, I can see how that can be annoying. It baffles me tho why you guys seem to think that the problem was not with trying to replace Goku in the first place, but with not sticking with Gohan. Really you think Toriyama wouldn't stuck with Gohan as the main character if he worked out as one? And this is what strikes me of mindless fanboism.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75902: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:01:49 AM

That's one way to look at it, even if I would disagree with calling it bad writing. But Toriyama did try his hand at having Gohan as the main character, it didn't work out, and he backed away from it. What's the point of trying to go back to it?

Nobody is saying he should go back (Though I'm not opposed to it), but pointing out the problems is aborting his original plan. He's effectively rendered Gohan with no purpose. The writers have no idea what to do with him. They have no intentions of writing him out, but they have to continuously ignore his prior development so that he doesn't overshadow Goku.

He wrote himself in a corner with Gohan basically. He wants to keep Goku as the main character, but he has to repeatedly ignore what he previously established with Gohan to do so.

You don't even have to like Gohan to understand this.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75903: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:02:32 AM

If you don't replace Goku with Gohan at the end of the Cell Saga, it's borderline unrecognisable and loses nearly all of its memorable moments.

The problem was not knowing how to make Gohan work as an MC. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it would be preferable to having Goku just take over again. Maybe make it more of an ensemble cast, give Vegeta and Piccolo important roles?

But the thing is, Toriyama doesn't know how to write that. He only knows how to write "everyone tries and fails, Goku comes in, beats the villain". That's more or less been the pattern for all of the "battle arcs" (as opposed to tournament arcs) since the Red Ribbon army arc.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:05:54 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75904: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:05:48 AM

No, the problem is that he tried to replace Goku in the first place. It was bad idea from the start which is where all those problems you talk about rose from.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75905: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:06:30 AM

[up] Not replacing Goku as the MC means that the Cell Arc is basically worthless. Not entirely, but it lacks the real emotional catharsis that just saves the latter half of it. No Gohan goes SSJ 2, no Goku sacrifice, no Father-Son Kamehameha.

But more than that, Gohan's character arc has been building in that direction slowly for the entirety of the Z period up till that point. So that just never pays off then?

So Goku being the MC continuously is more important than all of those emotional moments and that entire character arc?

edited 21st Jan '18 7:09:45 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75906: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:09:40 AM

Gohan didn't become the hero of the Cell arc until like five minutes before the end. Through 90% of it he was a bit player, much less important than in Sayian and Namek sagas.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75907: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:10:50 AM

Yes, it was very towards the end - and the most iconic moments of the arc that give the arc real payoff. Heck, Goku's not really in the Cell Saga much more than Gohan. He has a tiny sort-of fight and then he's comatose for the majority of it.

Goku was only in battle on Namek for a very relatively short period of time compared to everyone else as well.

I do agree that the hero of the arc being MIA for most of it is a problem, but it's hardly a problem limited to Gohan and Goku has it significantly worse and more often than him.

I mean, if you're talking about "who has the most emotional requirement to beat Cell" then that's clearly Trunks. I'd even argue that "who has the most emotional requirement to beat Freeza" that Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta all outscore Goku on that front.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:16:04 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75908: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:15:55 AM

Plus, there's nothing wrong with replacing a main character of a work. Lots of series do it and are still popular in spite of it.

Personally, I feel Goku has had a good run and felt replacing him with his son would have been fine.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#75909: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:16:51 AM

It'd be neat to have a cast of Uub, Pan, Bra, Goten, Trunks and Marron train and figure out a way to reaching godhood. Uub is already pretty damn strong for a kid, Marron is part android, and the others got Saiyan blood. Imagine if when they get older and become strong enough, one of them is offered the chance to become a God of Destruction?

Wouldn't that be an interesting endgame?

edited 21st Jan '18 7:17:27 AM by Rinsankajugin

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#75910: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:16:51 AM

The problem was never trying to make Gohan the new hero, its that Toriyama changed his mind about it. That indeed makes everything Gohan went through pointless since now there's never been a reason to make him a fighter to begin with.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75911: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:17:11 AM

It kinda rendered whole Android saga into a mess of sloppy writing and not planning ahead.

Think about it - it's not Trunks, the time traveler who came from future to save the world, or Goku the guy who's death set of the bad timeline in the first place, who save the day. No, it's Gohan, the one guy out of the squad who survived well into the future and didn't accomplish squat. But now he's the hero. Say what you will, but you can't convince me that's elegant writing.

[up]He changed his mind because Gohan as the new hero wasn't working out. He wouldn't do it if he knew that beforehand.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:19:40 AM by Shlugo_the_great

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75912: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:19:14 AM

Goku doesn't have any better reason to be the hero of the android Saga than Gohan. He's the only character there not actually killed by the Androids, so he's actually got the least emotional investment.

Also, Gohan did train Trunks, so you can't say he accomplished absolutely nothing. He did his best.

Like, absolutely no one in that team compares to Trunk's emotional investment, so saying that Goku would be superior to Gohan in that regard doesn't carry much water.

In addition, in the Namek Saga, despite fighting the man who genocided his entire race, Goku doesn't really have emotional investment in that fight either until Krillin bites it. Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta have all borne witness to Freeza's atrocities, Goku hasn't.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:22:25 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75913: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:22:03 AM

The entire premise of the Android saga was that with Goku out of the picture things went south pretty much immediately.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75914: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:23:33 AM

[up][up][up] The Android saga has a lot of problems, but Gohan was being built up since his debut in the Saiyan arc, so you can't say it came out of nowhere.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:36:31 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75915: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:24:04 AM

[up][up]That's not the same as him being emotionally invested or thematically relevant. In fact, Goku's impact being on his son - i.e., his legacy being not his own power but in how he could guide Gohan - gives Goku a stronger thematic role in the Cell Arc than he could ever possibly have as just the guy who beat up Cell but couldn't in another timeline because he snuffed it from disease.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:24:41 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75916: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:35:50 AM

And I don't think Toriyama ever gave a reason why he felt Gohan wasn't a good fit for the hero either. Even if not a lot of people would have agreed with the decision, giving a good reason is better than nothing. Because it just comes off as arbitrary without it.

It's not like Gohan wasn't popular, he placed high in polls right around the Cell saga iirc.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75917: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:38:10 AM

The entire arc is about a guy building death machines to try and get a revenge on Goku for something he did long ago. Goku's death in another timeline was what caused everything to go to shit. Cell is literally an aglamation of all og Goku greatest foes from the past. How is Goku not thematically involved?

Anyway, I think we are losing the track of the issue. The bottom line is, Gohan got his fair chance at being the main character - it just didn't work out. It would not been a good idea for Toriyama to stick with it just because he invested a lot of time in setting it up, that's just sunken cost fallacy. So no, it's not the course correction that was the problem, it was the idea to make Gohan the main character in the first place. But that just matter of hindsight. Toriyama couldn't possibly tell that Gohan wouldn't work as main character until he made him one, otherwise he wouldn't do in the first place.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75918: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:43:30 AM

Even if I did believe that, are people not allowed to be upset about it? You set people's expectations up and then just subvert them for what many feel is a flimsy reason. I don't think people aren't wrong for being a bit upset.

But let's change ship, why do you feel Gohan doesn't work as a main character to justify aborting his development? Do you think Toriyama should have just never wasted his time on him at all? Because I'm rather curious on why you seem so anti-Gohan.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:45:07 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75919: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:47:49 AM

Oh, sure they are allowed, no problem with that. It's not something I personally understand but I won't stop anyone from feeling that way.

When I say it didn't work out, I mean it didn't work out for Toriyama, which should be self-evident. As fickle as people sometime portray him out, I don't think he would go back on having Gohan as the main character otherwise.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75920: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:52:30 AM

The thing is, the reason Toriyama failed with Gohan as the MC is that he really only knows the one battle plot that Gohan isn't really as good a fit for as Goku; the other problem is that the Buu saga just keeps pottering along with the big dog changing so ofter (Gotenks! SSJ 3 Goku! Gohan! Vegetto!) that really it comes across more as a roulette wheel who was going to be the final hero to save the day than a decisive choice.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75921: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:55:31 AM

[up][up]That's not what I asked. I asked why you felt that way, or rather, why do you agree with Toriyama's decision?

Because the implication I get here is that I shouldn't question an author's decision on their work, even if I don't agree with it.

[up]I do feel he was setting up Gohan and the boys to save the day before hastily bring back Goku and Vegeta. You can tell because Gotenks plays the same role most characters do, holding the line for the hero, that being Gohan in this case.

edited 21st Jan '18 7:58:34 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75922: Jan 21st 2018 at 7:55:50 AM

The entire premise of the Android saga was that with Goku out of the picture things went south pretty much immediately.

But things would have gone the exact same way even if Goku was there. 17 and 18 were both stronger than him. That's a fact that's pretty easy to forget, and in universe, the characters wouldn't know that because they can't sense android powers.

As for Toriyama's decision to back track on Gohan as the hero...well I've long since said my peace on it, but has he really never given a reason for it? I could have sworn it was said that he just thought Gohan wasn't cut out for it or didn't have the mentality of a warrior.

Then again, why he felt that way all of a sudden is a good question.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#75923: Jan 21st 2018 at 8:00:56 AM

Personally, I never considered Gohan a good replacement for Goku so I had no problem with Toriyama decision.

But the thing is, even if I did, I would still support Toriyama decision, since I believe that nothing good would come out of a writer being forced to write something they don't want.

But things would have gone the exact same way even if Goku was there. 17 and 18 were both stronger than him

That's because they were arbitrarily stronger in this timeline for not very well explained reasons. And even then, just Goku knowledge of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber changed the game completely.

edited 21st Jan '18 8:03:15 AM by Shlugo_the_great

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75924: Jan 21st 2018 at 8:07:10 AM

Thats fair. But you can't expect people to just be ok with setting up a fan favorite and then pull the rug up from under them and then continuously misuse him.

So yea, Toriyama only has himself to blame with the Gohan situation.

But yea, I still don't like it myself and it's just led to Gohan being terribly written overall, which I don't like because he is one of my favorites. Watching a character you like be continuously badly written is not fun. And the massive outcry over him is a testament to that.

edited 21st Jan '18 8:08:18 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#75925: Jan 21st 2018 at 8:34:08 AM

Ya know, looking at other websites, I've noticed that a lot of people thought this week's episode was boring. Like, I honestly don't know how, the episode seemed pretty fun. For the most part, the only ones who didn't were us, and ironically enough, 4chan. Is it because of Gohan, I feel like it might be because of Gohan.


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