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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75676: Jan 18th 2018 at 5:01:45 AM

I think the way Arha described it to me recently is that your story should have some character moments that aren't entirely necessary - because if you cut down a story to everything that's strictly needed, it becomes hard to care about the characters for the parts that do matter. And some moments also add to the entertainment value.

In this regard, there is some potential to be had in the recruitment episodes. There's also the fact that they could be used to set up important details or developments.

What we actually got, was trash. A lot of it was really pointless, or inconsistent and bad even by Super's standards. The rest was stuff that would have been good if they actually led to what they were building up to (Boo's fight and getting back into motivation to join the tournament, Gohan learning not to let his guard down and improving). We got incredibly little important information in those episodes, and they weren't anywhere near strong enough to stand on their own as entertaining fluff.

On the flipside, I think the manga IS cutting too much right now. But I assume it's doing that because the actual tournament is what matters, and Toyotarou will obviously dedicate more time there.

It's really about balance. Neither of them are quite right, but the manga is a loooot more balanced than the anime.

edited 18th Jan '18 5:09:38 AM by Saiga

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#75677: Jan 18th 2018 at 5:57:49 AM

Dragon Ball fans sometimes remind me of parents watching their little kids perform at school plays.

We don't have a Broken Base section anymore. What does that tell you?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75678: Jan 18th 2018 at 7:09:51 AM

I don't think "balanced" is the right word, more like consistent. It may cut out a lot of content, sometimes to the detriment of the story, but it's much more consistent in what it does at least.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75679: Jan 18th 2018 at 7:14:32 AM

I agree that character moments, even if they aren't strictly "necessary" are important to a story. As Saiga (and Arha) said, individual moments might not be necessary but if you take out all such moments the story becomes much harder to care about. The thing is, Super doesn't really do those moments well.

What should I care about a "cool" fight when the characters strengths are entirely inconsistent and the same characters can fight like two seconds later with vastly different results for no apparent reason?

What should I care about character moments for Krillin or Gohan when they ultimately lead to nothing and rely on regressing their characters in the first place to set up said moments?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75680: Jan 18th 2018 at 7:45:31 AM

It feels to me like, paradoxically, the manga is more of a waste of time than the anime. Because at least when I watch the anime, even the worst episodes give me a few fun moments of entertainment. The manga is just giving me nothing of substance whatsoever, it rushes past all the stuff that could be cool in its hurry to rush past the cool stuff in its hurry to finish. Shonen is typically supposed to be a 2-3 chapter per episode affair, not 4-5 episodes per chapter.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#75681: Jan 18th 2018 at 7:49:33 AM

It's times like this I wish the manga was weekly, even if each chapter were half as long as they are now.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75682: Jan 18th 2018 at 7:56:38 AM

I interrupt the current manga discussion for this:

So has Masako forgotten that Shin didn't know about Beerus, because he was never told about him, because he was slotted into the head honcho position of a job that was being done by 5 people, because the one who was supposed to be doing it was sealed away in a sword by the same asshole Shin didn't know about for petty reasons.

Hell, Beerus fucking around and sleeping when he should have been around is the primary reason Shin got stuck in a job he was nowhere near properly trained for. If he'd been around when Buu showed up, there was have been a lot less death.

I do agree that Toriyama did him wrong however. Same for Kibito. He seems to follow the same patterns out of habit without thinking about things long term.

And now back to our regular Manga vs Anime discussion.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75683: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:22:54 AM

[up][up][up]That's because you're looking at the Manga as an adaptation of the Anime, which it isn't.

In any case, I agree that it cuts out a lot but honestly it depends entirely on if you felt like what the Anime adds is worth it overall.

Personally speaking, I don't really care a lot about the Anime original stuff aside from things like the Kaioken as most of it is mostly fluff that doesn't add much to me. That's not to say I wholly prefer the Manga, but the Anime irks the hell out of me with how much time it tends to waste.

And like Known said, I understand it's mostly because the Anime is told in an episodic format, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Ideally, a happy medium between the two would be ideal.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#75684: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:30:08 AM

I'm starting to feel sorry for Toyotaro: he entered in the Sonic The Hedgehog of the Shonen industry.

I guess I will have to wait for an Spiritual Succesor for this series, or an Ultimate Universe version from some artist not related to Toriyama, but the chances of seeing that are pretty unlikely.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:35:29 AM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75685: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:34:22 AM

Were I adapting the recruitment part, I would definitely keep the Goku vs Krillin fight, the Goku vs 17 fight, and the Goku vs Gohan fight. I would also keep visiting Tenshinhan's dojo, Yamcha's anxiety about not being chosen for the team, Roshi's training to overcome lust, and all of the other Universe's stuff with recruitment. I would not keep the Space Poachers, Yurin, or the U9 Assassins. I would make the Goku vs Freeza rematch a little longer to compensate for the lack of assassins.

The thing I loved about the recruitment arc in the anime is that it didn't do the traditional thing where all the fighters are gathered off-screen and they just go to the tournament without any fanfare. I loved that Super took its time showing off each individual team member and really building up the tournament itself as this massive event that everyone has to prepare for in their own ways.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:35:52 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#75686: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:37:28 AM

So recruiting 17 & finding out what he's been doing was a filler episode?

No, that was kept in. It was in the last chapter.

[up][up]I'm sure he's fine. He's doing his dream job.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75687: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:38:39 AM

[up][up]I would argue a lot of that ends up amounting to nothing given those characters` actual performances in the tournament. But I don't feel like having a back and forth all day here.

All I'll say is that had the Anime actually built on what they had in those recruitment arcs, I would have agreed that cutting that stuff out would have been for the worst. But given that it really doesn't, or at least in a satisfying way, I'll say we're not really losing much by cutting them out.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:39:15 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75688: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:39:07 AM

Pushover, I can't help but think that even if the manga did all those things, you'd just complain about still being behind the anime and would complain about taking those scenes you mentioned out with some other justification.

Because, although people are allowed to have preferences, you seem to go out of your way to criticize the manga, maybe to compensate for people criticizing the anime more harshly. That's the impression I've gotten, anyway.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:39:56 AM by LSBK

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#75689: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:39:22 AM

[up][up][up] Considering how people are reacting to Super, his dream job doesn't appear to be quite a dream.

Yeah, me too. Honestly, I liked the U9 assassins, even if it went nowhere, just did a good job in reintroducing Freeza to the audience (Remember, episodic nature, and a lot of people want to forget about Resurrection F). The anime also handles Freeza better.

I don't know why, but Toei is really good at making their villains charismatic. Goku Black and Freeza are memorable for a reason, and the TOP allowed Frieza to get out of his usual Big Bad role.

Yurin and the Space Poachers, however, can be taken out.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:40:55 AM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75690: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:40:13 AM

Got another vid (non Masako X):

I don't think it's as complicated as this guy is portraying things, but it is true that, to some extent, things that happened in Trunks' timeline (Goku and the Z Warriors all dying, Trunks' death by Cell, Gohan's arm injury) all happened under slightly different circumstances in the main series timeline.

It does make you wonder if maybe Trunks timeline really was always doomed, and he just delayed the inevitable when he first went back in time.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75691: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:40:16 AM

I actually do agree with him that the Manga does tend to lean too far into cutting things to the point of it not really mattering like Arha said earlier.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75692: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:44:11 AM

I'm going to agree with Pushover and Black Yakuzu as well; the recruitment scenes were necessary; that they were bollocked up in the anime just means that you have to fix them, you don't skip them.

Heck, they could also serve as a really good way to rank each fighter; have Goku fight Tien, Krillin and Roshi in base (possibly at the same time to save time) and gradually crank out the Super Saiyan forms as he spars with the stronger fighters. That way you have a good metric of what each fighter is going to bring to the table for the ol' TOP. You could even have rematches with some people. For example, I'd have Vegeta recruit Android 18 by sparring with her. Nostalgia pandering? You betcha. It's the only thing Super does well consistently.

edited 18th Jan '18 8:47:33 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#75693: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:46:10 AM

[up] That only reminds me that 18 was quite underused too. She was accepted from the beginning, and the best thing she did was send away a energy wave from Goku, but didn't really fought anyone besides sparing with Krillin.

I guess a rematch with Vegeta would have been cool, but I don't see it happening due to Vegeta not liking to fight anyone who isn't Carrot. Seriously, count the number of times he has fight anyone since the Cell Saga who isn't 1) a Saiyan 2) The main antagonist.

So much for hope, ain't destiny a bitch, Trunks?

edited 18th Jan '18 8:49:11 AM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75694: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:48:05 AM

I don't think I've once complained about the manga being behind the anime. I've complained about some other stuff in it, sure, but not that specifically. My main complaint is actually that the manga needs to slow down and not feel so pressured to keep pace with the anime. Give it more room to breathe and slow the pacing a bit, and I'm sure it would improve in quality dramatically.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75695: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:48:53 AM

I mean, I'd say keeping the recruitment short probably would have been better than skipping it entirely. But if it's a choice between what the direction the anime took, and what the manga took, the manga is better to me.

For one thing, you can still have character moments during the tournament and actually work on making them good and not a waste of time.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75696: Jan 18th 2018 at 8:54:47 AM

[up][up] That's not exactly an option given it's monthly, if it did what you said, the Anime would just outpace it completely. Like when it was still in the climax of the Goku Black arc when the Anime was already in the beginning of the To P.

[up] Given what we have, I'd say I prefer the Manga just getting to the point. The Anime's recruitment scenes were nice and all, but they ultimately didn't do much for me and not having them wasn't a big loss.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75697: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:14:12 AM

Also, the recruitment shouldn't have needed to have been drawn out because none of these people should have needed convincing in the first place. So I suppose a chapter spent on talking to them about it but, no, we shouldn't have had to gone through something like fighting 17 or bribing 18 or whatever to get them to fight to keep themselves, their families, and the entire universe from ceasing to exist.

That things like that were necessary was one of the anime's failings.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#75698: Jan 18th 2018 at 9:36:31 AM

17 has the right metal-ness.

"17 has the right mentality."

edited 18th Jan '18 10:58:00 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75699: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:04:47 AM

[up] Dr. Gero built him right, with titanium alloys.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#75700: Jan 18th 2018 at 10:31:36 AM

Android 17 doesn't give a fuck. I find him quite the treat to watch during the TOP.


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