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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75301: Jan 13th 2018 at 7:57:48 PM

Okay at the end of the Copy arc Goku clearly knew what a pacifier is compared to Vegeta who had no idea.

Yeah I'm taking this as further proof that he was around when Gohan was a baby.

Can't believe where at a point where I need this crap but I'll take what I can get.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75302: Jan 13th 2018 at 8:53:25 PM

Some nice tricks by Goku. I definitely admit. T'is a shame that when he gets creative like that, it's only because the enemy is gonna No-Sell it the way Jiren did that trick with the Kienzan.

Not too interested in Vegeta's new form, but seeing him and Goku actually work together, failing to do so, and actually succeeding in working together through that failure is a true sign of how bad things are...and kinda funny...and kinda awesome.

I'll say this much for Super: it's tried a lot of new things. It's had poor execution in a lot of cases, but it's tried to do a lot differently. We can safely say that unlike every other villain in the franchise, Jiren will not have a Villainous Breakdown and scream that he's the strongest in the universe and can't lose. and that's ok.

...then again, we can't be sure this won't end with ''and then Jiren wins and universe 7 gets erased.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75303: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:15:05 PM

Question: when exactly did Cell arrive in the main timeline? Was it before or after Trunks' first appearance killing Freeza? If Cell arrived before, how much before? Did Cell arrive from the future at about the same time Goku was fighting Vegeta or Freeza?

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#75304: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:21:30 PM

It was definitely before. They make it clear that Cell had been growing for years in preparation. I'm not sure if they made it clear exactly when it was, but I'd imagine sometime around the saiyan saga.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#75305: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:26:37 PM

Cell arrived a year before Trunks came and killed Frieza and Cold.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75306: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:33:24 PM

So Cell arrived at about the same time they summoned Porunga the second time to make New Namek and revive the rest of the characters not revived. Okay, good.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#75307: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:45:28 PM

Forgot to say, I agree with Rob. I liked Jiren being the Implacable Man here, and Goku trying to use every trick that he could think of. Actually reminded me of his stuggles against Freeza on Namek before going Super Saiyan.

edited 13th Jan '18 9:45:48 PM by Lionheart0

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75308: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:47:49 PM

At the very least hopefully Jiren goes down with some dignity.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75309: Jan 13th 2018 at 9:52:32 PM

At this point, I can't imagine Jiren won't go down with dignity. I literally can't imagine him freaking out in frustration or turning into a blubbering mess. Also, in the "minor Jiren characterization moments" category, we have Jiren acknowledging Vegeta as a warrior and telling him to sleep, which I interpreted as Jiren recognizing Vegeta's strength and skill and telling him to accept defeat and take a deserved rest.

edited 13th Jan '18 9:53:39 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75310: Jan 14th 2018 at 2:24:16 AM

123: Goku only using regular Blue, when both the characters and the viewers have already seen Jiren beat Blue Kaio-ken and UI Goku, is unbelievably frustrating. Everything before he uses Kaio-ken is a complete waste of time, which really undermines Goku's landmine strategy which would have been novel if not for the fact that he's not even bothering with his full power to do it. Also, the fact that he makes no effort to jump Jiren when he sets off the landmines, even if the plan worked he would have wasted any opening by waiting for the dust to settle.

The Kienzan strategy he did was legitimately cool though. Also it is really silly that Jiren is trying to push him out of bounds by that point and doesn't just instantly do so by using a smidge more power.

The comments throughout the whole thing make no sense. The fact that anyone expects Goku to achieve anything with just Blue is laughable, and it's really weird that Belmod comments on Jiren's power up with having not seen Jiren in a while, but... surely Jiren had to be using a lot more power than this when fighting UI Goku. The various reactions really make it sound like Jiren's showing off more power than he has before in the tournament, which is just dumb. And then Goku says he's never been hit by an attack like that before... so the attack that took out Kaio-ken x20 Blue Goku and left holes in him is weaker than the one that just knocked Goku out of Blue without the same injuries?

At least by the end, Goku is using his full power and with Vegeta's new form, they're able to try SOMETHING against Jiren that hasn't been attempted before so people can make sense when they get impressed (I doubt that Goku + Vegeta is credibly better than UI Goku, but it's close enough to be passable).

Also, I like how they had to have characters explain the meaning of Jiren's words because he's too damn flat to make his meaning more apparent.

One thing with Gohan and 17 vs Toppo, though, it appears like Gohan didn't hesitate how the spoilers said. I was kind of expecting that maybe they'd be wrong, and instead it'd be something Toppo did that made Gohan stop. It's not really clear why Toppo breaking the barrier made him stop, but I'm guessing that either Gohan was worried he couldn't guarantee taking both out if Toppo was out of the barrier, or just Kamehameha would seriously injure 17 without the barrier there. Much more sensible than just hesitating, at least. Trapping Toppo inside the barrier is also one instance of using the barrier I like from this tournament, because it's a new spin on it.

I dislike Freeza being revealed to have taken no damage because he still hasn't used golden form. It doesn't make Dyspo look like a credible threat - Golden was enough to take Freeza from being kicked around by base Goku to stronger than Blue Goku. Dyspo really needed to be absolutely dominating to look like he could threaten golden Freeza, cause right now he doesn't even look as good as base Goku did and that's really bad. From previews it seems obvious that he'll be able to challenge golden Freeza and Gohan at the same time, so they shouldn't be making him look bad here.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75311: Jan 14th 2018 at 2:39:54 AM

Well, we know from Goku vs Caulifla that a difference of 100 times over can be made up with sheer martial arts skill, so I can believe Goku and Vegeta putting up something vaguely resembling a fight against Jiren, especially since Ultra Instinct could very well be just a 50x multiplier on top of Blue going by the similarities between Round 1 and the Freeza Namek fight. Unlike Freeza, however, Jiren's strength wasn't noted to change at any point during the special after he and Goku started fighting, and Goku fought Jiren in Blue without using Kaioken for most of their short fight during the special. Jiren was using the same amount of power while fighting Blue Goku that he used while fighting Ultra Instinct Goku.

I can believe KKx20 Goku and SSB2 Vegeta putting up a fight against Jiren when working together, especially since he might only be like 2-3 times stronger than either of them at the moment and their lack of coordination is throwing off Jiren's rhythm.

Dyspo didn't injure Freeza much, but all he did was smash him into Katchi Katchin, not actually punch him. Freeza is also on-par with SBG Goku in his 4th Form, so he's no pushover.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75312: Jan 14th 2018 at 3:00:17 AM

Goku vs Caulifla is nonsense. Even if base Goku can keep up with her just due to skill, then his Super Saiyan 2 form should have completely flattened her. If Goku was skilled enough to challenge Jiren at a huge power discrepancy, then getting power on par with with Jiren should allow Goku to curbstomp him. Anything else is just flat out inconsistent. Also, if Jiren used the same amount of power fighting Blue Goku, that makes significantly less sense with him powering up toward the end of that fight, and with Vegeta knowing he's not at full power. I don't see Jiren suddenly became so unskilled to go from pummeling 20x Kaio-ken Goku to being resisted by Blue Goku.

Freeza is a pushover compared to his golden form, however. I already used Freeza's comparison to Goku as to why Dyspo shouldn't be put off by anything he achieves pre-Golden in order to still look like a credible threat.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75313: Jan 14th 2018 at 4:07:59 AM

Vegeta's new form sure is kawaii

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75314: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:21:27 AM

Dyspo's speed is 1,000 times greater than his power level. With that kind of a multiplier applied to one specific stat, match-ups tend to bounce back and forth depending on exactly which moves Dyspo is using. Dyspo can hit either with his weaker base strength, which Final Form Freeza can take (also again, only smashing him through Kachi Katchin which might as well be a notably durable rock for all that matters) or with 1,000 times momentum, which should knock Golden Freeza off his feet and knock the wind from his sails.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#75315: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:23:54 AM

So.

Dragonball Super, Dragonball GT, or Dragonball Multiverse.

Which one is the worthy worthiest least crap successor to the original manga?

edited 14th Jan '18 8:12:48 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75317: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:28:33 AM

They all have good bits but are all massively messy.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75318: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:30:32 AM

Super. It feel like a natural continuation of the gods being relevant in the Buu Saga combined with going back to Journey to the West with fighting said gods, while GT feels like a couple steps backwards in setting escalation by just going back to space again and repeating the plot themes of the Z arcs all over again. Multiverse is fan-made, it can't be an official continuation.

edited 14th Jan '18 5:33:42 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#75319: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:44:47 AM

123 -

I liked episode but god damn did the animation took a nose dive. Tolerable but geez. I hope Gohan & 17 VS Toppo gets better soon, cuz right now it feels like it just there to pad out the run time. Apparently 17 can control the physics on his barrier or Gohan actually is stronger than 17.I like how Dyspo can't do any significant damage to Freeza & Freeza can't land a hit on Dyspo. A very fascinating conundrum but if NEP is to go any by that won't last very long.I really enjoy watching Goku's tactic against Jiren. While this just shows how incredibly versatile Ki is, those landmines didn't serve any purpose. The destructo disk tactic was really awesome, but Jiren's recovery was a tad silly. I would've prefer him recovering by launching himself with a ki blast but it's not like that would have that much better.I'm glad Vegeta's new power up doesn't involve Ultra Instinct. This new form looks much more appropriate for him. It looks similar Super Vegeta which is fine in my book. Unfortunately there was such little fanfare of the power-up especially when you compare to Ultra Instinct. At least we got to witness such power-up unlike SSGB & Golden Freeza.The highlight of this episode was undoubtedly team up against Jiren. It was visual treat but again the animation prevent what could've been an amazing scene.

Also found this on Reddit regarding Vegeta's motive in this week's episode.

I'll say this much for Super: it's tried a lot of new things. It's had poor execution in a lot of cases, but it's tried to do a lot differently. We can safely say that unlike every other villain in the franchise, Jiren will not have a Villainous Breakdown and scream that he's the strongest in the universe and can't lose. and that's ok.

Something I that's still very much unique to Jiren's role as an antagonist & something I'm hoping that Beerus will never do.

...then again, we can't be sure this won't end with ''and then Jiren wins and universe 7 gets erased.

Still prefer that scenario over Goku being the last man standing & winning the TOP.

edited 14th Jan '18 5:47:05 AM by agent-trunks

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75320: Jan 14th 2018 at 5:46:52 AM

No-one said anything about an official continuation, no-one said to be a worthy successor it had to be official.

Despite the first arc being an obvious step backwards, I think GT actually feels more like a continuation than Super. Especially when it comes to characterization, GT really felt it was trying to do new things with the characters even if it didn't quite make it work in most cases. But that's one area where Super feels like a very large step back, with many characters regressing or becoming flanderized.

Both still feel very much like they're trying to ape the original, with rehashing concepts/plot ideas or just feeling like they're written to emulate popular moments. This also leads to situations where it feels like they're trying to imitate something from the original without the proper context or understanding of what made that work (much like Toei's movies).

Super's overall plot feels like an attempt at a continuation, by expanding the concept of the universe and the God hierarchy, but making Gods important again also feels a bit like a step back since that area had already been covered in the manga and obsoleted. The arc welding is something new, but elements like Resurrection F feel like an old Toei movie rather than any attempt to take the story in a new direction. All the fanservice, nostalgia and pandering really drag it down and make it hard to see it as truly trying to move forward rather than appealing to the past.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75321: Jan 14th 2018 at 6:05:50 AM

Super is at least a LOT more original with its arc antagonists and plots than GT is.

Super Plot 1: an asshole god hangs out at a birthday party

Super Plot 2: old arc villain back for revenge (which, to be fair, is the first time Dragon Ball's ever done this plot seriously)

Super Plot 3: an ancient assassin in an interuniversal tournament

Super Plot 4: an evil self-righteous god engages in time travel shenanigans

Super Plot 5: big-ass multiversal tournament with a superhero as the main antagonist

GT Plot 1: travel around the universe to quirky planets and find Dragon Balls, like combining the first arc and the Namek arc.

GT Plot 2: evil parasitic racist alien (Freeza/Hatchiyack, except parasitic) takes over Earth.

GT Plot 3: combining Androids (Cell Saga) break a rift between the living and dead realms (Fusion Reborn)

GT Plot 4: Sealed Evil in a Can, like with Buu, but with the Dragon Balls themselves (technically, the Shadow Dragons are not quite sealed evil, but they fits all the trappings of one, having been fought many years ago and just now breaking free again).

edited 14th Jan '18 6:11:10 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75322: Jan 14th 2018 at 6:22:17 AM

Eh, you can make the argument either way when you simplify it down to such a reductive form. Like, the Shadow Dragons arc has nothing in common with the Boo arc at all, and having an Android antagonist doesn't make the 17 arc any similar to the Cell arc.

Nothing about RF is original. The main storyline hasn't done it that seriously (except for Ma Junior) but the movies have, making this not original at all. Furthermore, RF very very heavily borrows from the Namek arc.

BOG and RF are very similar to skeleton of most Toei movies, the humour and consequences set BOG apart but RF heavily lacks that.

Overall I agree that Super's plots are more original than GT's, but it isn't a huge difference. The antagonists are about the same - both just straight up re-use an old antagonist, but Super 17 is a different character than 17 between the brainwashing and the fusion and he's also in a much different role to the original 17 compared to Freeza from Z to RF.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#75323: Jan 14th 2018 at 6:25:56 AM

[up]"Super 17 is a different character than 17 between the brainwashing and the fusion"

I mostly agree with this, though I also think that calling Super 17 "a character" is an exagerration.

In any case, neither show feels all that more original than the other to me.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75324: Jan 14th 2018 at 6:34:07 AM

I liked GT's ideas more, but Super feels like it's trying to reach new levels with dealing with the gods.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#75325: Jan 14th 2018 at 6:35:04 AM

I would say I like Super's ideas more than GT, but both have problems in executing them.


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