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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6926: Jun 24th 2014 at 10:00:18 AM

Tobias, I just made a wall of text in response to the last thing you addressed to me, but after hitting the final two paragraphs I think you had the wrong idea of what I was trying to say.

I didn't mean that the results/winners of battles or even performance are used to show who is stronger, both I and the series itself are aware of the multitude of other factors that effect the outcome of the battle. The fact that Vegeta and Pure Boo lost doesn't make them weaker than what killed them.

What I did mean was that it can clearly be shown, and often is, who is stronger in battle, regardless of who the actual winner is. Despite Kuririn's good performances it's made clear in those battles that he's at the disadvantage in power, etc. Going back to the Nappa and Fat Boo comparison, both of them had their power clearly established in moments that don't rely on other factors so it's very easy to say Fat Boo is stronger than Nappa even while ignoring things like people talking about how strong their ki is and whatnot.

Alright, that, I can agree with.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6927: Jun 24th 2014 at 1:57:05 PM

Most Saiyans didn't have the training opportunities that Goku and Vegeta did. Goku was given the chance to commune with his universe's god's and train with them, unlike all other Saiyans at the time.

Not true. Goku got a few months on King Kai's planet, where all he really learned was Kaioken, the Spirit Bomb and how to fight under 10x Earth's Gravity. Nappa, Vegeta, Raditz and every other Saiyan spent far longer on Planet Vegeta, which has comparable gravity, yet all of them except Vegeta were FAR weaker than Goku after just a little while under those conditions. Goku and Vegeta are genetic freaks, and do not in any way point to the rest of their race being that gifted.

Do not forget that Saiyan society placed battle power above all else, so it's only natural you would be pushed harder in that culture than the Earth culture we see.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6928: Jun 24th 2014 at 2:28:06 PM

Prior to Goku's training at King Kai's place, he was weaker than Raditz.

Also, the Kaioken did a lot of heavy lifting in the fights with Nappa and Vegeta. The 10x gravity on King Kai's world that is comparable to the Saiyan planet left Goku still weaker than the both of them, but the power amplifying effects of the Kaioken made up the difference.

At Kaioken x3 - 300% of his natural power - Goku's Kamehameha was still losing the push against Vegeta - who had no multipliers - and his Galick Gun. You're underselling the effects of King Kai's training on Goku's power level pretty significantly.

Goku didn't outpace Vegeta until his gravity training on the way to Namek, which pretty much consisted of working himself to exhaustion and then chugging a zenkai - a natural, genetic power boost that all Saiyans have. Even then, most of Vegeta's improvements on Namek were also the product of repeatedly receiving zenkais.

edited 24th Jun '14 2:31:13 PM by TobiasDrake

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6929: Jun 24th 2014 at 3:41:07 PM

Yes, in a few months with King Kai, Goku ended up with a Power Level of "over 8000", more than 6 times as powerful as Raditz, who spent far longer under the same conditions. Nappa was 4K, and Goku only used the Kaioken so that he could get a speed boost to take Nappa out before he got to Gohan and Krillin. This rapid growth is unique to Goku and Vegeta, as far as pure-bloods go.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#6930: Jun 24th 2014 at 4:27:26 PM

Its easier for Goku to get stronger from adapting to the heavy gravity as he was training when on King Kai's planet. Sayains didn't need to adapt to their own planet, meaning that the gravity wouldn't effect their what their power level could potentially be at all.

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#6931: Jun 24th 2014 at 4:41:02 PM

Is it just me, or is Nappa mighty huge in Xenoverse? I know he's a big guy, but he looks like a fucking tank in that game.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6932: Jun 24th 2014 at 6:02:44 PM

[up] I know what you mean Nappa is fuckin huge but can you imagine what Broly is gonna look like in Xenoverse?! tongue

edited 24th Jun '14 6:04:29 PM by FireShadow

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6933: Jun 25th 2014 at 1:54:21 AM

[up][up] He looks that big at some points in the anime/manga, especially the anime. It really depends on what they're going off as a reference.

Anyway, I'm really hopeful that this is a custom character. The red-haired Gohan hairstyle was used when showing off UT's character creator so I think they might be trying to make that a trademark of the custom characters.

The idea of having your created character be able to go back in time to the events of the series was actually an idea I was using for my own game plans, so it'd be really neat if that ends up being the case here. I chose that idea because it's an easy way to branch off into what-ifs by having you directly cause changes, and also because it gives the option for players to jump in where they want or avoid it entirely if they don't want to - I know a lot of people are sick of going Raditz - Boo every game, so there'd also be a present time mode in my idea that people could do if they didn't want to time travel.

Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#6934: Jun 25th 2014 at 3:01:53 AM

I'm not holding my breath for the ability to fuck with everything in the timeline freely, but at the very least, being able to craft a what if universe where Yamcha sucked less ass would be fun.

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6935: Jun 25th 2014 at 3:08:16 AM

You should play Yamcha's story mode in Ultimate Butoden, it was made specifically for fans that wanted him to be more involved. He is essentially cast in Goku's role, playing the same events of the story out but with him fighting the battles Goku did.





And getting killed in every single one of them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6936: Jun 25th 2014 at 6:11:24 AM

[up]

Seriously?

Wow, that's not just a bone, that's a whole fucking Dinosaur.

If there was anyone who needed some good press.....

....And now come the part where you tell me that he either fails completely at everything, or wakes up to realize it's All Just a Dream right?

edited 25th Jun '14 6:11:36 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6937: Jun 25th 2014 at 7:45:20 AM

Dragon Ball Z is the only anime franchise with a fighting game I know of where the supporting characters got a chance to kick some major ass via their own, What-If story mode.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6938: Jun 25th 2014 at 11:11:39 AM

[up] Hmmm, not that I think about it, you may be right. Hell, in the Dragon Universe mode of Budokai 3 you can play as Krillin, Tien and even Yamcha being the main characters.

Demoted to Extra, my ass. grin

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6939: Jun 25th 2014 at 12:31:43 PM

some interesting news came my way. A survey conducted on the Tokyo Otaku Mode Facebook page asked readers which anime characters they'd most like to have as their dads. Goku came second.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6940: Jun 25th 2014 at 2:21:52 PM

[up]inb4 Abridged jokes.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6941: Jun 25th 2014 at 3:22:57 PM

Yes, in a few months with King Kai, Goku ended up with a Power Level of "over 8000", more than 6 times as powerful as Raditz, who spent far longer under the same conditions. Nappa was 4K, and Goku only used the Kaioken so that he could get a speed boost to take Nappa out before he got to Gohan and Krillin. This rapid growth is unique to Goku and Vegeta, as far as pure-bloods go.

Citation needed. The Saiyans we see in the series are a sample size of 2. We have no idea how fast Saiyans who work their asses off training really hard can grow, because most Saiyans don't work their asses off training really hard, they just coast on their Superpower Lottery and awesome Oozaru transformations. Even Vegeta was doing that, dismissing the entire idea that a Third-Class Saiyan can get stronger through hard work and training, and only taking the idea seriously after Goku shows up on Namek and hands the Ginyu Force and then Frieza their asses.

Goku wasn't special by any sort of anomaly in his genes, he was special because Master Roshi taught him to work hard and train to get stronger, which seems to be unheard of on Planet Vegeta. Vegeta became special by doing the same thing.

If you're going to assert that this is not true, that their genes are uniquely coded to make them both far more powerful than any other Saiyan can be, then prove it. Prove that the two of them are genetic freaks by citing a pure-blooded Saiyan who engaged in the same level of training that Goku and Vegeta did and did not receive the same returns on his/her investment.

edited 25th Jun '14 3:25:55 PM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Nexus Since: Jan, 2001
#6943: Jun 25th 2014 at 4:46:11 PM

[up][up][up][up]I'm more concerned with Isshin Kurosaki being #4 on the list. Seriously, who wants a dad who greets you by kicking you in the face!?

edited 25th Jun '14 4:46:33 PM by Nexus

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6944: Jun 25th 2014 at 4:50:11 PM

[up]Someone with the power to make people who kick them in the face automatically explode.evil grin

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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#6945: Jun 25th 2014 at 7:31:24 PM

Kenshiro?

Watch Symphogear
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6948: Jun 26th 2014 at 5:21:55 AM

Knock yourself out, Tobias.

We know for a fact King Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan alive, and his power level was only 10000. That's not even half as strong as Zarbon or Dodoria. Cui, that Vegeta killed without a hint of trouble, was almost twice as powerful as the most powerful Saiyan alive.

Also, AT said about 10 Saiyans were actually elites/mid-class (Nappa is among them), and above them are the Super Elites (King Vegeta and Vegeta).

The Saiyan race at large wasn't that good, bro. And no, you're not understanding. You could be born with the best genes in the world and still never amount to anything if you don't put in the work, but Goku and Vegeta put in a shit tonne. That, combined with their genes, is why they're strong. A race of space pirates that are constantly in battle and constantly getting Zenkai boosts should be far stronger than Frieza's grunts, but potential isn't unlimited and everyone has limits. Goku and Vegeta were lucky to be born with limits beyond what other Saiyans had.

Also, Master Roshi didn't teach Goku that. He was always that way. You should fact check before replying this time.

edited 26th Jun '14 5:33:04 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6949: Jun 26th 2014 at 7:52:05 AM

Knock yourself out, Tobias.

What, the characters' power levels? That amounts to exactly nothing, and helps your case in no way whatsoever.

We know for a fact King Vegeta was the most powerful Saiyan alive, and his power level was only 10000. That's not even half as strong as Zarbon or Dodoria. Cui, that Vegeta killed without a hint of trouble, was almost twice as powerful as the most powerful Saiyan alive.

Yes. Because Frieza's elites are more powerful than Saiyan elites. The Ginyu Force could also run rings around King Vegeta. What's your point?

Also, AT said about 10 Saiyans were actually elites/mid-class (Nappa is among them), and above them are the Super Elites (King Vegeta and Vegeta).

Vegeta actually explained this to Goku in their fight. Vegeta is a super-elite because he was born with an incredibly high power level - 15,000, if I recall correctly. Nappa is a regular elite because he was born with a reasonably high power level. Goku is low-class garbage because he was born with a substantially low power level.

Saiyans judge their young based on their power level at birth, and expect them to remain at that power level forever. They don't train. Nobody in Frieza's army trains. Training from Hell is completely unheard of among Frieza and his men; saiyans can get zenkais, sure, and Ginyu can Body Change to steal a higher power level, but pretty much everyone in Frieza's elites is powerful because they were just born that way, including Frieza himself.

Frieza and his army embody natural, God-given talent in direct opposition to Goku and the propensity for working hard to increase his power level. Remember Vegeta's line, "I will show you the power that no amount of 'hard work' can surpass!" That is how Saiyans think. Vegeta didn't train to reach his power level. Neither did Nappa or King Vegeta. They weren't born with naturally high potential; they were just born with really high power, and never grew after that.

Frieza is a mutant. Goku and Vegeta are not, although Vegeta is a super-elite. Neither of them are genetic anomalies.

The Saiyan race at large wasn't that good, bro. And no, you're not understanding. You could be born with the best genes in the world and still never amount to anything if you don't put in the work, but Goku and Vegeta put in a shit tonne. That, combined with their genes, is why they're strong. A race of space pirates that are constantly in battle and constantly getting Zenkai boosts should be far stronger than Frieza's grunts, but potential isn't unlimited and everyone has limits. Goku and Vegeta were lucky to be born with limits beyond what other Saiyans had.

The Saiyan race didn't master the Super Saiyan transformation, so of course, they weren't god-slaying good. But the potential to become a Super Saiyan existed within every last member of their community. The potential to become that good by training hard existed in them as well, but was never realized because they were convinced that you stay at whatever power you had when you were born.

It is never even remotely hinted that Goku and Vegeta have abnormal potential. In point of fact, the suggestion that Goku is as powerful as he is because he's genetically special contradicts a major theme of the show. It wasn't luck and virtue of his spectacular birth that made Goku great, because Goku was not born special, he was born incredibly weak by Saiyan standards.

Lastly, the Saiyans aren't constantly getting zenkais, because they use the Oozaru transformation to slaughter everything. As Vegeta demonstrates, they've even mastered the ability to trigger the Oozaru without needing a moon, by virtue of creating artificial moons. Thus, they aren't being constantly defeated to near-death planetside; from what we've seen of how they operate, they scout the planet, determine its average power level, then send Saiyans who are strong enough to curbstomp it. It's all very methodical.

Goku was sent to Earth because the Saiyans were convinced that a single Oozaru could wipe out the planet and, by all indications, they were totally right; Goku's friends who had time to get to know him and understand the mechanics of how he operates are the reason why they were able to counter the Oozaru by cutting off his tail or blowing up the moon early in the series; without that, Oozaru Goku could have succeeded in his mission and came home without ever receiving a single zenkai for his trouble.

The zenkai is rare because Saiyans being utterly destroyed in battle - but not killed, mind you - is exceedingly rare. Frieza's empire operates far more efficiently than that.

Also, Master Roshi didn't teach Goku that. He was always that way.

Master Roshi taught Goku to always keep pushing himself and never be content with his current state in the first World Martial Arts Tournament we see, by defeating him as Jackie Chun. That was the entire point of Roshi entering under a secret alias, as he exposits afterward: to instill in Goku the idea that there is always someone stronger than him, and he should never stop pushing himself.

And he never did.

You should fact check before replying this time.

You shouldn't flame-bait.

edited 26th Jun '14 8:04:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6950: Jun 26th 2014 at 9:06:39 AM

And you could argue "he was always that way" why? Because we never saw him once between his infancy and Grandpa Gohan's death. Remember that guy? Student of Roshi, Goku's first martial arts teacher?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

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