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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6876: Jun 22nd 2014 at 7:58:51 AM

The series never really escalated after Vegeta's declaration that he'd blow up the Earth with his Galick Gun until Cell said he'd destroy the entire Solar System with his attack.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6877: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:04:19 AM

I don't know, I thought Frieza destroying Namek onscreen was pretty effective. Cell was a step down because he didn't actually do much of anything.

Then it picked back up with Buu, what with the horrifying scenes with the Human Extinction Attack and then blowing up the Earth. And then several planets in a row for the heinous crime of not hiding Goku and Vegeta.

Rule of Perception. Rule of Perception.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6878: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:14:03 AM

Frieza destroying Namek onscreen was very effective. The problem is that it's just hard to swallow a threat larger than "the entire planet". Cell threatens to blow up the solar system? Pardon me for not caring overmuch what happens to Jupiter.

As [up] noted, Rule of Perception. Once they passed the point of "can destroy the planet", everything beyond that was inconceivable nonsense. It's hard to show that Majin Buu is a million times more powerful than Nappa was, because Nappa was already inconceivably powerful. Thus, the series relies heavily on telling the audience how powerful its characters are, because it's impossible to show.

edited 22nd Jun '14 8:15:27 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6879: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:24:38 AM

Hmm.

Good point.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#6880: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:28:48 AM

To be fair, Buu was effective because he was actively going on a killing spree and we actually saw how many people died because of him, up to and including the main cast of supporting characters.

The only reason nobody cared is because Dragon Ball Z is the incarnation of Death Is Cheap, so a threat to the galaxy doesn't really mean shit if the dragonballs are just the magic Reset Button. It just kills the tension.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6881: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:40:11 AM

Buu's not the first villain to do that, though. Frieza went on a killing spree and exterminated Planet Namek, and his wasn't even deliberate; it was just a side effect of his methods for gathering the Dragon Balls.

He didn't kill most of the supporting cast, however, due to the fact that most of the supporting cast was still dead from when Nappa killed nearly all of the protagonists, one arc prior. In fairness, neither of the villains ever got characters like Chi Chi or Bulma, because they were too weak to be involved in the fighting, but "managed to kill the weaker supporting cast members" isn't exactly a triumphant display of unprecedented power.

edited 22nd Jun '14 8:41:44 AM by TobiasDrake

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#6882: Jun 22nd 2014 at 8:57:10 AM

Yes, but Frieza had some degree of control, where he wasn't just killing at random, there was an objective, and rules even he had to follow (albeit, that he was unaware of) - nor could he sense anyone, nor did he have or was capable of insta-learning Instant Transmission.

Buu had no objective - Fat Buu was unpredictable, but he at least went through the motions of being human, building himself a house, socializing, sleeping. Whereas Kid Buu, from what we saw, would have just kept blowing up planets until it was time for a nap. Seriously, the only thing he did as soon as Earth was gone was IT to the next planet and kill the inhabitants. Frieza, at least, needed a spaceship. Also, Kid Buu blew himself up to do it, and just reformed afterward like it was nothing.

First thing he did was launch a Death Ball at the planet. It took Frieza hours of aggravation and Cherry Tapping before he finally went, "F'ck this,".

edited 22nd Jun '14 9:00:18 AM by FOFD

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6883: Jun 22nd 2014 at 9:19:56 AM

Speaking of which, Frieza is strongly implied to have little to no training. He overwhelms his opponents with his raw power, and he started freaking out only when he could no longer do that. He was born with all his power.

If he'd actually taken the effort to train... How many magnitudes did Goku's strength go up when he trained?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#6884: Jun 22nd 2014 at 10:00:54 AM

More game trivia!

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Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#6885: Jun 22nd 2014 at 10:43:09 AM

[up][up]If Frieza trained as hard as Goku does he probably would eventually be able to surpass Cell in strength. Even after Goku spent decades training he still didn't pass Frieza in base form. Frieza with training is actually a terrifying thought.

edited 22nd Jun '14 10:43:32 AM by Kostya

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6886: Jun 22nd 2014 at 11:00:21 AM

[up] Oh my God. With the insane amount of innate power that Freeza had, if Freeza ever thought about training he would be unstoppable.

But the Saiyan's in my opinion are an even more extreme case. Goten became a Super Saiyan before he knew how to fly. That's insane. Saiyans can literally become as strong as they want anytime they want because they're biology demands it. Don't even get me started on Super Saiyan God...

edited 22nd Jun '14 11:00:48 AM by FireShadow

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#6887: Jun 22nd 2014 at 11:33:43 AM

[up] To be fair, you needed six pure-hearted Saiyans to use that transformation in the first place, which isn't something most of the race were.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#6888: Jun 22nd 2014 at 11:48:19 AM

[up][up]That's not very accurate. Most Saiyans were low-level. Goku and Vegeta were anomalies and are not reflective of the entire race. And in the manga, it was said by Vegeta that hybrids of human and Saiyan possess far more potential than pure-bloods, and is always left out of the anime for some reason.

As for Frieza, he said he trained with his father.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
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#6889: Jun 22nd 2014 at 12:39:34 PM

@ Fire Shadow: Ten times denser then earth doesn't mean much when your planet isn't even the size of your usual Extinction event level asteroid....

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6890: Jun 22nd 2014 at 9:02:58 PM

Goku and Vegeta are reflective of the race's potential. Their experiences are unique, but their capabilities are not. In fact, disproving the idea that some Saiyans are just better was the entire theme of Goku's fight with Vegeta in the first place; any one of them could have become Goku or Vegeta under the right circumstances, it's just that those circumstances didn't arise.

Even before Battle of the Gods gave us Bills and Super Saiyan God, Saiyans were biologically coded with the potential to outweigh the very gods themselves. Only Goku and Vegeta ever grasped that power, but doing so was still an aspect of their biological makeup.

edited 22nd Jun '14 9:05:14 PM by TobiasDrake

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6891: Jun 23rd 2014 at 2:15:51 AM

Goku and Vegeta are reflective of the race's potential. Their experiences are unique, but their capabilities are not

Nope, that's 100% false. It's more than just their circumstances, it's outright said in the series its them as individuals that makes it possible.

Also, area damage is about the worst way to show characters being stronger, even worse than just straight up saying it. It's pretty fucking easy to tell Majin Boo is stronger than Nappa since he's shown overpowering people who were clearly shown to be stronger than Nappa - and that's always been the most accurate and best way to show it, rather than comparing damage caused to the scenery.

edited 23rd Jun '14 2:37:35 AM by Saiga

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6892: Jun 23rd 2014 at 7:17:42 AM

It's a pretty effective way to create more dramatic scenery, though, no matter who it is. Both Piccolos were fought in what was essentially a nuclear crater, Dying Namek is so famous for a reason, and then there's the whole thing with Janemba. The scenery there pretty much made that movie.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6893: Jun 23rd 2014 at 8:40:57 AM

it's outright said in the series its them as individuals that makes it possible.

I think the point was that with similar experiences, any Saiyan can theoretically achieve the same power. Whatever statement it is that says "only Goku and Vegeta can do this because they're super special awesome" doesn't sound accurate. Experiences, yes, genetic potential, no. Goku was born from a low-level Saiyan, and was considered below par for most Saiyan babies, but he was able to rival Vegeta in his adult years. The only thing stopping a Saiyan from doing this is whether they have the same w-

EDIT:

Except that he wasn't and he didn't. It is never stated in the manga or in the anime that baby Goku was weak or that his power level was only 2. That was only in the Bardock movie which like nearly all DBZ movies isn't canon. In DBZ Raditz told Goku that saiyan kids are sent to conquer weak planets, not that Goku himself was weak when he was a baby.

Ha, I just found this in the comment section of a Dragon Ball webcomic, what a coincidence.

Seriously starting to dislike the manga, because it doesn't have a lot of the Expanded Universe elements that make Dragon Ball feel like an actual setting with characters that have come and gone - its very blunt, and a lot of the cool parts of the Dragonball universe get ruled out because "oh, didn't happen in the manga, not canon".

Well I don't know if the manga ever touched on Goku's infant power level, but the anime did. In that version of the story, its stupid to have Goku and Vegeta be "special" for no reason - it is the potential of their species. Their personalities drive them to become stronger, but that's not anything to use against the rest of their people.

In the manga, I assume that Raditz was weaker than Nappa and Vegeta? And he was owning both Goku and Piccolo. Thus, Goku was far below his remaining brethren at the time. Raditz was cut from the same cloth, but it was Goku's experiences that made him gain strength, it wasn't some mutant ability to gain larger amounts of strength than other Saiyans or whatever.

That's not very accurate. Most Saiyans were low-level. Goku and Vegeta were anomalies and are not reflective of the entire race. And in the manga, it was said by Vegeta that hybrids of human and Saiyan possess far more potential than pure-bloods,

Most Saiyans didn't have the training opportunities that Goku and Vegeta did. Goku was given the chance to commune with his universe's god's and train with them, unlike all other Saiyans at the time. Vegeta was able to survive multiple near-death experiences through luck and the aid of the Z-Fighters, as well as abuse the ROSAT and the Gravity Chamber.

Goku and Vegeta are reflective of what their race can potentially achieve, there's no denying that short of "Goku and Vegeta have mutant genes that allow them to gain abnormal amounts of strength". That explanation only works for Broly, who has a rare, unique form that no other Saiyan is shown to achieve, and their sons, who achieved Super Saiyan at young ages.

edited 23rd Jun '14 9:10:10 AM by FOFD

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6894: Jun 23rd 2014 at 9:06:01 AM

[up] Exactly this.

Also, area damage is about the worst way to show characters being stronger, even worse than just straight up saying it. It's pretty fucking easy to tell Majin Boo is stronger than Nappa since he's shown overpowering people who were clearly shown to be stronger than Nappa - and that's always been the most accurate and best way to show it, rather than comparing damage caused to the scenery.

But it's neither accurate nor a good way to show it.

It's not accurate because the characters never live up to how powerful we're supposed to buy that they are. Raditz is strong enough to overpower Goku and Piccolo simultaneously but then can't break out of Goku's Full Nelson. The Saibamen are as powerful as Raditz and can oneshot Yamcha, but Krillin can kill three of them simultaneously with a single blast. Vegeta's entire fight consists of being countermined by characters he's supposed to be strong enough to curbstomp effortlessly.

And that's just the first saga. Protagonists' power levels fluctuate to wherever the plot demands that they be, with Piccolo going straight from too weak to handle Nappa to overpowering Second Form Frieza, based entirely on fusing with a guy that even First Form Frieza could effortlessly curbstomp.

Krillin frequently runs circles around characters he absolutely shouldn't be able to, putting in a solid showing against Nappa, Vegeta, and even Frieza's Second Form which, based on the fact that it kept getting slaughtered in single combat with Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo, honestly comes off as much weaker than his First Form if we go off on combat performance alone.

Hell, Krillin even did some solid damage to Recoome by blindsiding him and slamming his jaw down on his Eraser Gun, causing it to explode inside his skull.

And then there's the constant Power Level Wanking to justify characters abruptly changing performance. "I was just holding back. No, I was holding back there too. Now I'm serious. Nope, that was holding back, I'm getting serious now. Oh, you're serious now too? Well I'm DOUBLE serious."

The characters are as effective in combat as the plot demands in Dragon Ball, regardless of what their power level is or should be, which makes combat effectiveness a terrible way to show how powerful the characters are meant to be.

As for whether or not it's a good way to show it, well, it's not. Violence is about a lot more than just who has a higher power level. A fight is not a statistical comparison, "X is stronger than Y, therefore X wins." Again, see Krillin's amazing performances for reference. It's not just about power, it's about skill, it's about experience, it's about conditioned reflexes, split-second decisions about whether to zig, zag, or feint. Strength is an advantage, but the strongest fighter can still lose horribly to the weakest by virtue of a great many other factors.

In fact, that was the entire theme of the Goku v. Vegeta battle: that pure strength isn't a guarantee to determine the outcome of a fight. It comes up again when Captain Ginyu steals Goku's body but can't figure out how to make it do the awesome things Goku could do with it, when Perfect Cell is killed by a momentary distraction pulling his attention away from the Beam Struggle with SS 2 Gohan, even so far as Kid Buu being obliterated by a Combination Attack by all the weak, powerless individuals on Earth. "Just being really strong" is a common element of the show's villains, and it's never good enough.

edited 23rd Jun '14 9:12:24 AM by TobiasDrake

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#6895: Jun 23rd 2014 at 10:22:22 AM

Seriously starting to dislike the manga, because it doesn't have a lot of the Expanded Universe elements that make Dragon Ball feel like an actual setting with characters that have come and gone - its very blunt, and a lot of the cool parts of the Dragonball universe get ruled out because "oh, didn't happen in the manga, not canon".
This. This is why I will defend Online, GT, and the movies/specials to the death.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
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#6896: Jun 23rd 2014 at 11:01:10 AM

It's pretty hard to take area damage seriously as a measure of power.

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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6897: Jun 23rd 2014 at 12:17:16 PM

[up][up] The thing is, as far a continuity goes Dragon Ball Online fits like a glove if you follow the manga and Dragon Ball Z Kai and some of the movies such as The Legendary Super Saiyan, Bojack Unbound, Wrath Of The Dragon and Battle Of Gods also can fit within the main timeline without any major disruptions and are also good movies on their own that contribute much to the Expanded Universe of Dragon Ball.

Every other Dragon Ball Z movie and GT just can't fit in within the main timeline because they have too many Continuity Snarls working against it and as a result has to be deemed "non-canon".

GT got of the worst though. Because that got rectonned out of the Dragon Ball universe by four different Dragon Ball related works all of which Toriyama wrote or significantly contributed to: Dragon Ball Online, Dragon Ball Minus, Jaco The Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball Z Battle Of Gods. But in all fairness GT is kinda rubbish. The only redeeming factor of GT were the Shadow Dragons, they were awesome and ironically foreshadowed in the manga.

edited 23rd Jun '14 12:25:26 PM by FireShadow

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6898: Jun 23rd 2014 at 2:15:24 PM

that got rectonned out of the Dragon Ball universe by four different Dragon Ball related works all of which Toriyama wrote or significantly contributed to: Dragon Ball Online, Dragon Ball Minus, Jaco The Galactic Patrolman and Dragon Ball Z Battle Of Gods

That.

Now let's hold on a minute here.

Retconned out? Toriyama delivered significant contribution toward? How much? What does that mean? Just because an old film maker comes back to advise, produce, or executive produce a sequel to his/her film years later doesn't necessarily mean the other one is retconned out.

Toriyama never returns my phone calls, so does anyone have any actual, live interview with Akira Toriyama where he says that anything has been retconned out/made non-canon? Because the DB Wiki used to JUMP at the opportunity to say, "This new title ignores GT! GT is non-canon, Toriyama said so, yay!" And with the number of discrepancies involved in Minus, Jaco, Online, and GT - it's hard to believes that Toriyama's contribution, no matter how big or large, actually rules out anything.

What happens if Dragon Ball AF is penned by Toriyama two years from now, and it contradicts Online or Minus? Are those two retconned out?

edited 23rd Jun '14 2:25:46 PM by FOFD

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#6900: Jun 23rd 2014 at 3:01:15 PM

Why we're bashing GT to defend Jaco/Minus is beyond me. As much as canon matters to me in principle, I really wish J/- didn't exist. But since it does, I have to acknowledge it.

I actually liked GT.

edited 23rd Jun '14 3:02:17 PM by BaffleBlend

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