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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6826: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:36:21 AM

Contradiction is a failure to tell a coherent story. That's called "bad writing".

I disagree.

I disagree that contradiction is a failure to tell a coherent story.

I disagree that failure to tell a coherent story is bad writing.

First of all, you haven't defined "coherence".

A lot of stories fudge little details of plot and what happens when where in order to get their themes and messages across, and to do otherwise would negatively affect the pacing.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:10:13 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6827: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:37:48 AM

[up]Alright, I challenge you. Tell me where contradiction contributes positively to a story. Tell me a contradiction that a story would suffer without.

A lot of stories fudge little details of plot and what happens when where in order to get their themes and messages across, and to do otherwise would negatively affect the pacing.
Leaving things vague or revealing new information that fits and feels natural isn't contradicting anything.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:40:19 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6828: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:41:17 AM

K.

Goku taking Boss Rabbit to the moon to make toys for children.

I like the reference to "The Rabbit in the Moon". It's funny.

Later on, apparently Goku needs to breath, while Frieza doesn't. So Frieza is fine blowing up the planet.

The two facts contradict each other, but work fine in their respective situations, because the stories are trying to do different things.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6829: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:44:40 AM

[up]Yes, they are trying to different things, and because of that, the overarching story is a jumbled mess that shatters Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

It was entertaining, but nobody could say Toriyama was a good writer. We enjoy it, and we're allowed to, but the flaws in his stories are still glaringly obvious like a sore thumb, which is why there's such a big hatedom.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:47:34 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6830: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:50:14 AM

Yes, they are trying to different things,

Good.

and because of that, the overarching story is a jumbled mess

Disagree.

Good. I think Willing Suspension Of Disbelief is boring. It's not how I watch things.

To wit:

Novels are not gossip about imaginary people. They are not descriptions of people that just happen not to exist. Rather, they're imitations. Fiction has impact because it resembles the real world in some fashion and thus inherits some of its emotional affect. We care about things in fiction because they remind us of things that are real. And we read fiction through a process of continual interpretation and deciphering. A plot is a web of events that make each other likely or necessary. Much of reading a work of fiction is working out that web - trying to figure out what the future implications of something are, or trying to work out why something happened based on what happened previously.

The only real problem with contradictions is that they are likely to be points in which the reader is led to make incorrect interpretive decisions for reasons having nothing to do with misdirection or surprise.

That's part of my explanation. Or someone else's explanation I borrowed.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:49:43 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6831: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:51:12 AM

Good. Willing Suspension Of Disbelief is boring.
...My God, You Are Serious!.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6832: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:51:45 AM

Yep.

I don't see why people use Willing Suspension of Disbelief. I don't think the job of fiction is to convince us that it's real.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:59:57 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6833: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:53:38 AM

I just... don't know what to say. You have the polar opposite tastes to everyone else on the planet. I can't work with that.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6834: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:54:01 AM

Not everyone.

Like, some people here. Some people elsewhere.

Aristotle agreed with me. Or I agreed with Aristotle.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:54:38 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#6835: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:55:29 AM

I'm done here. I'm sick of being insulted.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6837: Jun 18th 2014 at 11:31:36 AM

This is Tv Tropes. A lot of people here are writers, aspiring writers, and other people affiliated with the act of writing.

Unnoun, while consistency is not always required, especially for gag-based storytelling such as Looney tunes, used as an example earlier in the discussion, serious plot-focused and character-driven storytelling do need to be internally consistent in order to have reasonable plot development and characterization. If a work intends to take itself seriously, it needs to hold up to analysis and criticism.

Baffle, Dragon Ball was never intended to be serious, plot-focused, character-driven storytelling. It originated as a gag manga and, even after Cerebus Syndrome set in, never really left its author's propensity for gags, random occurrences that he thought were funny, and complete lack of foresight. It's not a serious, carefully-plotted action story with some occasional comedy; it's a silly, slapstick comedy shaped like an action series. It never took itself seriously.

Now, can we stop this? Because, seriously,

  • Personal Attacks
  • Overdramatic announcement of departure.
  • Trying to quit a conversation only after getting the last word in, then returning immediately when the conversation continues.

This conversation has taken a turn that is not acceptable on our forum.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6838: Jun 18th 2014 at 11:35:49 AM

Sorry. sad

edited 18th Jun '14 11:42:37 AM by unnoun

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6839: Jun 18th 2014 at 2:45:13 PM

Sorry. Again.

Dragon Ball Xenoverse producer interview. Starts about 25 seconds in.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#6840: Jun 19th 2014 at 3:49:17 AM

Also on Xenoverse, Time Patrol Trunks from DBO will be involved somehow:

edited 19th Jun '14 3:49:51 AM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6841: Jun 19th 2014 at 7:21:03 AM

It happens to everyone, Unnoun. Don't feel bad.

Is Time Patrol Trunks what I think it is? Because I never played DBO, but it sounds like Future Trunks policing the timeline.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6842: Jun 19th 2014 at 8:16:55 AM

I wonder if the god of time or whoever will be involved.

I don't think he actually appeared in DBO, right?

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#6843: Jun 19th 2014 at 8:40:58 AM

Huh, so the DBO storyline will be involved in DBXV.

I wonder if Time Patrol Trunks will be an alt costume of Future Trunks or his own character...

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6844: Jun 19th 2014 at 11:43:44 AM

[up][up][up]Yup, exactly what it sounds like. He got in trouble after the Cell Saga, so he has to be a time cop as penance.

But I'm thrilled DBO will be involved in DBXV after all. Hopefully this means DBO character customization.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6845: Jun 19th 2014 at 7:32:18 PM

Sassy, black Super Saiyan female. Soon.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#6846: Jun 19th 2014 at 7:58:46 PM

wild mass guessA new feature in DBXV is that it senses your created character has boobs and takes twenty points off all your stats. And permanently locks all Super Saiyan transformations.wild mass guess

My various fanfics.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#6847: Jun 19th 2014 at 11:47:41 PM

This is Dimps we're talkin' about. They already got female SSJ-3's, they just gotta apply that to this game somehow.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#6848: Jun 20th 2014 at 1:27:19 AM

Hey, I just remembered, they announced a ton of new characters for DBH.

Naturon Shenron (Pan absorbed), SSJ-3 Majin Vegeta, Majin Garlic Jr., Majin Telluce, Majin Slug, Majin 13, Majin Hatchiyack, Majin Bojack and Majin Janemba were confirmed playable. Majin Baby Janemba and Majin Hildegarn are bosses. Also, Arale and Gatchan will appear in some form as well.

It's Majin-mania!

edited 20th Jun '14 1:27:37 AM by Rinsankajugin

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6849: Jun 20th 2014 at 7:40:28 AM

[up]

What the fu-

Naturon Shenron (Pan absorbed), Majin Garlic Jr., Majin Turles, Majin-every other villain?

I would be rather excited about this, not knowing that it takes place in a turn-based, card battle system.

nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Gamer-turning-maker
#6850: Jun 20th 2014 at 7:43:04 AM

Majin ALL of the movie villains!

Long live Cinematech. FC:0259-0435-4987

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