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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6801: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:26:22 AM

Canon was an insult by Ronald Knox.

That's literally the origination of the term in fandom.

Also, plenty of Greek myths used the same characters. Were they the same work? Or different stories?

The World's Strongest has Goku, Piccolo, and Master Roshi in it. Does it need to be "canon" with anything else?

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6802: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:29:54 AM

[up]The origin of a word has nothing to do with its meaning.

And you just defeated your own point by comparing greek myths, self-contained derivative works of each other written at different time periods by different authors, with World's Strongest, a self-contained derivative work that's enjoyable in its own right but doesn't fit into the complete book of Dragon Ball.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:30:42 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6803: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:31:21 AM

We all joke about how Toriyama was making stuff up as he went along. Each chapter was, in reality, in the writing process, by any sane standard, a self-contained derivative work.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6804: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:32:01 AM

[up]We joke about Toriyama Writing By The Seat Of His Pants because the story suffers due to it. It's an obvious first draft.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:35:08 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6805: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:35:19 AM

Oh, Frieza's back and also a robot. Oh, some guy from the future killed him, and he's a Super Saiyan, and Vegeta and Bulma's kid. Oh, there's two androids. Oh, the androids are an old man and a fat clown thing. Oh, they're the wrong androids. Oh, the androids are teenagers. Oh, there's a third android. Oh, they're stronger than a Super Saiyan. Oh, there's a bug thing from the future that wants to eat the androids. Oh, there's a level higher than Super Saiyan that Vegeta and Trunks get. Oh, actually, Goku just trains a lot in the regular Super Saiyan state and gets so much stronger. Oh, there's another level beyond Super Saiyan that Gohan gets.

And we've praised the Cell saga so much. I know I have. Gohan's transformation is a powerful moment, and one that works.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:35:55 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6806: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:36:28 AM

[up]See? The story suffers due to it.

Genuinely good moments like Gohan's transformation shows that the story has potential and a lot of it, but needs to be seriously refined.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:38:46 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6807: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:36:54 AM

I think that it makes the story so much better.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6808: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:38:20 AM

[up]You think a heaping helping of Deus ex Machina and Diabolus ex Machina makes the story so much better?

You talk big about the writing process, but you forget things like "proofreading" and "revision".

edited 18th Jun '14 6:40:10 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6809: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:41:53 AM

Stories need tension, they need resolution.

Deus ex Machina has gotten a lot of flak as a storytelling device. Not all of it deserved.

We might need a few more Gods from our machines.

Which brings us back to BOG.

Revision is lovely, and is never a bad thing ever. Just talk to Star Trek fans and the reboot their franchise had.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:42:37 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6810: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:43:20 AM

[up]Deus is, by definition, resolution that severely undermines the tension. Makes it totally meaningless.

Again, defeating your own point.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:44:30 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6811: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:44:57 AM

A Deus ex Machina and an Ass Pull are not the same thing.

Not according to our wiki pages at least.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:46:56 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6812: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:47:37 AM

[up]Yes, they're not the same thing, because the former is a subtrope of the latter.

An Ass Pull used to resolve an unwinnable situation for the protagonists is a Deus ex Machina. An Ass Pull used in the same way for the villains is a Diabolus ex Machina.

And regarding the Star Trek reboot, there are such things as separate canons within related works. That is where greek myths come in. But make too many canons, and people get confused.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:58:36 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6813: Jun 18th 2014 at 6:58:17 AM

Hmm. The Deus ex Machina page specifically says it isn't an Ass Pull. Weird.

...You know, you keep saying that Greek Myths and Loony Toons are different, but haven't exactly explained how.

I mean, the movies of Dragon Ball and a lot of the filler episodes of the anime are self-contained. There's the Dr. Slump crossover. Crossovers.

There's Jaco and Minus and Episode Of Bardock.

EDIT: Y'know what? I give up. There's no point trying to convince anyone.

edited 18th Jun '14 7:03:04 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6814: Jun 18th 2014 at 7:03:59 AM

It seems the ass pull/deus pages contradict each other.

Jaco/Minus is canon, begrudgingly so. There are points in every story that we don't like. Why? Because no story's perfect.

Episode of Bardock was just a quick cashgrab for the Kinect game.

EDIT: Thank you. There's a good reason you hold the minority opinion here.

edited 18th Jun '14 7:04:57 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6815: Jun 18th 2014 at 7:08:23 AM

[up] I don't think it's a good reason. But whatever, I guess I can't convince anyone otherwise.

Your counter-arguments against me seem quite possibly as illogical to me as my points apparently seem to you. I have no idea why you would think I've been defeating my own points. For example:

And you just defeated your own point by comparing greek myths, self-contained derivative works of each other written at different time periods by different authors, with World's Strongest, a self-contained derivative work that's enjoyable in its own right but doesn't fit into the complete book of Dragon Ball.

So Dragon Ball was definitely, in my mind, a bunch of self-contained derivative works of each other at different time periods by different authors. The movies and the video games and the anime and the manga didn't have the same author. Or authors. Heck, the Toriyama that started a silly little Journey To The West parody isn't really the same Toriyama that ended with Goku training Uub. Or Goku fighting Beerus. Or Jaco trying to kill Kakarot. Or Gine and Bardock sending Kakarot off for his own safety. Toriyama grew and changed a lot over the years. People tend to do that.

So I thought I compared Greek myths, self-contained derivative works of each other written at different time periods by different authors, with Dragon Ball, self-contained derivative works of each other written at different time periods by different authors. Doesn't seem very self-defeating to me. But maybe it does to you? I'm sorry for that.

There is nothing to be gained if neither of us can comprehend the others' reasoning. Just talking past each other. Naught but sound and fury.

Happy late Father's Day.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:56:36 AM by unnoun

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#6816: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:14:24 AM

Canon isn't always the best.

Fullmetal Alchemist 2003 and Hunter x Hunter are both arguably better than the original sources. Hellsing's plot and mood are better than Hellsing Ultimate's.

The Walking Dead TV series has fun with the fans who think they know better because they read the books. The series is actually applauded for changing aspects of canon with believable, emotional bravado - and fucking with people who want to spoil the plot.

Black Lagoon had its own version of the "El Baile de Muerta/Roberta's Blood Trail" storyline and arguably created a more emotional conclusion. Trigun, the anime, has a more philosophical and tragic plot than its manga counterpart, which is more developed and features a larger world, despite both containing different characters and backstories.

There's tropes like Pragmatic Adaptation, Canon Foreigner, Composite Character, and Woolseyism that all highlight when canon can go f'ck itself and a work can be all the more entertaining for it.

It does bother me that anime films almost never affect the plot of the series or even attempt to fit the timeline, but then, I'd never have gotten some of my favorite villains otherwise.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:21:31 AM by FOFD

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6817: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:21:28 AM

[up][up]It's not a derivative work if it's part of the same storyline. As different as the tone is over time, there's only one plot.

Looney Tunes and greek mythology don't have overarching stories — there are hundreds of isolated plots that don't affect each other and only last a few minutes. See the difference?

edited 18th Jun '14 10:23:37 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6818: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:27:04 AM

Greek mythology had overarching storylines. The Iliad and the Odyssey. The Cypria.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:28:07 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6819: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:28:11 AM

[up]The Iliad and the Odyssey have their own canon for that series. The other myths aren't a part of that series.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:29:00 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6820: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:28:38 AM

And they contradict each other in places and were told a while apart.

There was a whole cycle of myths about Troy.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:29:35 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6821: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:29:44 AM

[up]By the same author. And the contradictions are a flaw in the work, a failure to notice where the story didn't make sense. That's what you don't understand, self-contradictions are a flaw. Bad writing. Went over the author's head. A mistake.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:31:14 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6822: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:30:48 AM

There are scholars who debate whether or not Homer even existed.

That's what you don't understand, self-contradictions are a flaw.

I don't think they are.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:41:47 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6823: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:32:00 AM

[up]So bad writing and a failure to proofread isn't a flaw. Is that right?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#6824: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:33:05 AM

Contradiction isn't bad writing. It isn't a failure of any kind. Contradiction is contradiction. Nothing more or less.

It seems kinda arrogant actually to accuse the works that serve as part of the foundation of generations of culture of being badly written.

Except they weren't written at all.

edited 18th Jun '14 11:41:58 AM by unnoun

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#6825: Jun 18th 2014 at 10:34:35 AM

[up]Contradiction is a failure to tell a coherent story. That's called "bad writing".

And are you really trying to say I think I'm better than Homer? Well, guess what. I'm not. Everything has some form of cracks in the foundation. Nothing's perfect, not even Sacred Cows. It's my job as a writer to minimize those cracks in my own work.

edited 18th Jun '14 10:36:21 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

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