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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6751: Jun 12th 2014 at 8:16:25 AM

[up] Hooray! Another person actually respects Krillin!

Seriously though, I agree with everything you said, I mean you put into context how insanely over powered the Dragon Ball universe, its a flat out miracle that a pure blooded human like him was able to put up a fight and remain relevant to plot for as long as he did. I was pretty certain that once Namek Arc began, Krillin would have become inconsequential to the plot. But no, he and Gohan more than hold their and through working together, and enduring some Teeth-Clenched Teamwork with Vegeta, prevent Freeza from becoming immortal and survive multiple onslaughts from Freeza's army, the Ginyu Force and Freeza himself!

I mean, despite the crazy shit that Krillin has gone through, he never backs down from a fight despite how much the odds are stacked against him, to point where he acts like a Fearless Fool. Even his deaths play a huge role in the story.

And when all is said and done, he ends up marrying the hottest and strongest chick in all of Dragon Ball, Lazu-, I mean, Android 18. wink

I don't care what anyone says, Krillin rules! cool

edited 12th Jun '14 8:44:09 AM by FireShadow

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6752: Jun 12th 2014 at 8:23:24 AM

[up]

Agreed.

Though once again, I feel sorry for Yamacha.

And now, the jokes about his loser-ness will begin.

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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6753: Jun 12th 2014 at 8:38:09 AM

[up] I honestly, I don't even care about Yamcha's Memetic Loser status to bother to make jokes about it.

He just never got a big break from day 1. He's the Sakura Haruno of Dragon Ball.

Hell even the anime filler respected Krillin more as a character to have him put up a fight against Cell and even Majin Buu. Although he understandably curbstomped, he at least had the guts try, unlike Yamcha who stayed on the sidelines after Dr Gero and Android 19 debuted.

edited 12th Jun '14 1:29:24 PM by FireShadow

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#6754: Jun 12th 2014 at 9:19:34 AM

If I had Yamcha's Win/Loss record, I'd stay on the sidelines after being nearly killed by Dr. Gero too. Fact is, he was never good at this. Ever. His entire history is just him getting his ass kicked over and over and over again. He never even made it to fighting Nappa. He dies, then comes back so he can nearly die again, accomplishing nothing any time he tries to fight.

That doesn't make him a loser, so much as it means that maybe this isn't the right career path for Yamcha. He just isn't any good at it, and calling it quits doesn't strike me as cowardly so much as him finally accepting that this life has done nothing but shit on him for years, and maybe he should just go do something else. The only real benefit he ever got out of it was meeting Bulma, and after she left him for Vegeta - the man responsible for his death, mind you - the fact that it was long past time to throw in the towel finally caught up to him.

Yamcha is the soldier that would have washed out of Basic Combat Training for both his own safety and that of his brothers-in-arms, because incompetence on the battlefield tends to get your buddies killed.

edited 12th Jun '14 9:21:42 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6755: Jun 12th 2014 at 12:22:04 PM

The funny thing is, while what you say makes sense, he still constantly got stronger.

It just never did him any good.

Looking back, Yamcha might have only been a fighter due to needing a way to survive (he was a desert bandit before he met Goku). He did well, came up with his own technique, and started thinking he was hot stuff.

Then he started getting stomped all the time, so he worked harder and improved. The fact that he made actual progress probably tricked him into thinking he had real talent (and compared to most humans, he clearly does) but fighting at the level the Z-Warriors tend to do is just beyond him.

He's not a warrior. He's just a stronger than average thief.

I think that the Saibaman fight was the turning point for him (even if he still needed about another 3 years to realize it). Maybe something would have changed for him personally if he'd been more aware in that one moment (even Toriyama says he'd have won if he'd paid more attention). He still would have died, but maybe he would have trained much harder, and actually gotten some real discipline, and a check to his ego (which is what he really needed).

He probably still would have sucked, but not nearly as much as he does now.

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Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6756: Jun 12th 2014 at 1:02:52 PM

[up][up][up]I'm not sure if I could say "anime filler respected Krillin" considering he jobbed to Yamcha in a Cell Arc filler

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6757: Jun 12th 2014 at 1:21:21 PM

That was a joke fight where they weren't really being serious.

I'd hardly call it Jobbing.

If you're thinking of the Garlic Junior arc, even then, he was likely holding back against his friends.

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Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6758: Jun 12th 2014 at 1:29:38 PM

Also, I find the Sakura/Yamcha comparison an insult to Sakura. She's at least a main character for the series even if she is mostly useless, while Yamcha was only really important in the first arc and maybe the Baba arc. A much better comparison would be Kiba. Both Kiba and Yamcha have a pet companion, are the first people to put the protagonist over, and are associated with wolves.

Sakrua I think is more like Gohan. Main characters who are treated more like support until Sasori/Cell, where they win through the guidance of Chiyo/Goku, and then go back to being mostly useless again.

edited 12th Jun '14 2:19:20 PM by Jaken

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6759: Jun 12th 2014 at 2:44:08 PM

[up] What!?

Sakura did jackshit more than half of the plot in Naruto. Gohan remained a significant central character for 95% of Dragon Ball Z, playing a huge role and getting several Crowning Moment Of Awesome in every arc of the show. And quite frankly, comparing Sasori to Cell is damn insulting. Sasori played nowhere near as huge as role in the plot as Cell did, Sasori was at best a Superpowered Mook.

If anything Sakura is worse in comparison, she supposed to be a main character and she still gets treated like a glorified jobber, who every now and again will heal some people. Yamcha was a supporting character at best so his jobber status is somewhat understandable. But considering Sakura is meant to be the heroine of the show, the treatment she gets is bloody appalling and recently has bordered on sexist, and it doesn't help that she gets reminded constantly, by a certain Uchiha, how useless she is.

edited 12th Jun '14 2:45:16 PM by FireShadow

Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6760: Jun 12th 2014 at 2:58:05 PM

Crowning moment of awesome in every arc? Only time I'm impressed with him these days was on Namek.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6761: Jun 12th 2014 at 3:02:45 PM

[up] Really?

Did you actually watch or read the Cell Arc by any chance?

Or the Saiyan Arc?

Or the Buu Arc?

Or some of the Dragon Ball Z movies?

Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6762: Jun 12th 2014 at 3:11:51 PM

Yes, I've read the entire comic. Either he's having an asspull or being a chump who needs someone to hold his hand. The Buu Arc is probably the most offensive one. He's built up the entire arc, only to lose and and make the enemy more than twice as strong before.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6763: Jun 12th 2014 at 3:28:46 PM

So him becoming a Super Saiyan 2 was an asspull?

The idea of him have a great amount of dormat power, despite the fact it was foreshadowed constantly, was an asspull?

I don't remember him ever needing someone to "hold his hand" to do anything. Hell, he decided himself to go the Namek in the first place, because he felt it was his responsibility, even though he didn't know what kind of danger he would face. The only period he ever requested the aid of someone else of felt helpless was during the early period of the Saiyan Arc. But even he grew a spine pretty damn quickly and was taking on the like of Nappa and Vegeta with no fear... and he was freakin five at that point.

You wanna take this even further... in alternate timeline, where the world goes to shit and he had no one to support him, he still became a Super Saiyan through sheer determination and training on his own and even trained Future Trunks to become a Super Saiyan. Even when he lost one of his arms he was still kicking ass.

edited 12th Jun '14 3:34:33 PM by FireShadow

Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6764: Jun 12th 2014 at 3:35:09 PM

Saiyan: He didn't really do anything impressive here, he only "wins" because his tail grew back at the last second. Basically an asspull, literally.

Androids: Future Gohan didn't hold his own against the Androids. #17 was just using half is power, he was toying with Gohan the entire time.

Cell Games: The peak was when he got slapped around until Android 16 died? Or was it when he goofed around until he got his father killed? Then when he cried and needed his dad to mentally guide him, as in holding his hand?

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6765: Jun 12th 2014 at 4:19:56 PM

So him saving his dad from being beaten to death and being the only character who doesm to major damage to Raditz despite having no previous experience in fighting, surviving a year of Training from Hell from the age of four, taking on Nappa, saving his Goku from being beaten to death again and taking on Vegeta aren't considered impressive feats?

And even though Gohan really had no chance against the Androids he still put up one hell of a fight... even with one arm. And his training of Future Trunks is incredibly important no matter what way you look at it.

And far the Cell Games go, Gohan was putting up a fight and was only afraid of going all out because of how he essentially loses his sanity when does so in the process, which has happened in past a lot. And him not killing Cell when he had the chance was a result of immense he was feeling when his hidden power was unleashed and became a Super Saiyan 2. Goku went through the same thing when he became a Super Saiyan for the time, what made you it would any different? Especially when it's a stronger transformation.

Gohan becoming a Super Saiyan 2 because of Android 16 dying is actually is very poignant and symbolic because through Android 16 Gohan saw humility, and inherently peaceful nature and a feeling to protect life, similar to him. Despite the fact Android 16 had been built to kill, much like Saiyans such as Gohan himself, even when he didn't recognize it. So when Android 16 died, it felt like a part of him died as well.

And wouldn't you fell great despair if you knew you played a significant part in your fathers death? He was freakin nine for crying out loud, kids are way emotionally vulnerable. And despite all that he still defeated Cell in arguably the most epic moment in the whole franchise.

edited 12th Jun '14 4:26:31 PM by FireShadow

Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6766: Jun 12th 2014 at 4:32:54 PM

Saiyans: Attacking Raditz was an asspull, and Piccolo did major damage to Raditz too. He wussed out against Nappa, yes that is understandable since he was like 5, but I wouldnt call it crowning moment of awesome. He didn't save Goku from Vegeta, Yajirobe did. As for "beating" Vegeta, well he just got lucky with Genki Dama and the Tail Asspull.

Namek: I agree, he was awesome here. Dude had backbone for once.

Cell: He refuses to fight and goes back to being a pacifst, a clear condradiction of his character on Namek. His SSJ 2 beatdown was just a rehash of Vegeta's beatdown on Cell, and then he fucks up like an idiot and Goku has to hold his hand. As for Future Gohan, its like I said: he didn't put up a fight, he only thought he did because he didnt know Android 17 was only using half his power and trolling him. As far as training Trunks goes, his strength never mattered until the Ro Sa T training, where he became strong enough to beat the Androids.

Buu: Already covered this.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6767: Jun 12th 2014 at 5:32:16 PM

How was attacking Raditz an ass pull? Pretty much every character prior to Gohan's introduction pulled off at least once the whole "Get Very Angry, Get Very Powerful'' trope. I mean what do you expect? It's a bloody battle manga!

Yes, Gohan wussed out against Nappa but in a five year olds first major battle, you're bound to be nervous and he did unleash one hell of a masenko on Nappa when Piccolo died saving him.

And did you not get the memo, when King Kai and Goku explicitly stated that the Genki Dama doesn't harm anyone who has pure heart, like Gohan. So it's not a asspull in the slightest

And yes he did save Goku's life. Goku was freakin crippled and Vegeta was literally stomping him to death until Gohan intervened. I already know Yajirobe saved Goku from being crushed by Vegeta, but that doesn't mean Gohan play a significant part in saving his life. As far a Gohan regrowing his tail, did you not read or watched the original Dragon Ball adventures? The same thing happened with Goku when he was a kid.

Future Gohan's training was responsible for him becoming a Super Saiyan. If Future Trunks doesn't become a Super Saiyan all hope is lost. What other way does he became a Super Saiyan prior to the Androids and Cell debuting?

How is Gohan being a pacifist a contradiction of his character? He never like fighting in first place. He's not a Blood Knight like his Goku or Vegeta. He only show more willingness to fight became it was a necessity not a pleasure. He fought on Namek a lot because he knew that if he didn't Piccolo and his other Z Fighters would be brought back the life rendering the whole arc pointless and even Piccolo was brought back to life they still had deal with Freeza and Vegeta. Two evil bastards hell bent on immortality, he knew that it a necessity to step up and fight whenever the time was need in that scenerio.

He didn't want to fight Cell because he felt it was pointless and that he had nothing to prove to fight someone just for sport like his dad and Cell were. It wasn't like Gohan was saying "Let's all be friends and never fight again!", it was more like, "This whole fight is meaningless. You have no main goal and is only doing this whole tournament for your own amusement and I don't want to contribute to this senseless violence. I'm not a Blood Knight like my dad." I mean the whole Cell Games wasn't nothing more than a sadistic, cold blooded battle royal with insanely high stakes.

The whole final clash with Cell is a callback to Gohan's previous attitude of not wanting to fight Cell. He couldn't find a plausible justification for fighting Cell in the first place, but Goku had one for him before the Cell Games even began and it was to unleash his true power and use it save the world and he informed Gohan of that spiritually.

As far the Buu Arc goes, it's hit and miss. Him beating the hell out of Buu was awesome but him becoming the strongest in the show and not really contributing much was kinda bullshit. But it happens to pretty much every character in Dragon Ball that ever gets a power up.

edited 12th Jun '14 5:32:50 PM by FireShadow

Jaken Since: Jun, 2014
#6768: Jun 12th 2014 at 6:08:53 PM

When do characters get rage-boost before Raditz? I don't remember the "Get Very Angry, Get Very Powerful'' trope happening ever pre-Raditz. As for the Genki Dama, I wasn't referring to that an asspull but the tail coming out of the last second. Yes it happened before but I actually do have some complaints about the 21st Budokai if you want me to get into that.

Yeah he was helpful in the Saiyan Fight, I do recall that when Vegeta when back to his regular form he kicked Gohan's ass until Goku had to hold his hand and mentally guided him to the fight.

I don't recall it being said that Future Gohan was the reason why Trunks was SSJ, he was always shown to be SSJ in the manga. The hope was that Trunks will use Bulma's Time Machine to give Bulma's Medicine to Goku so he can survive and fight the Androids. As for Trunks beating the Androids and Cell, that was because of his Ro Sa T, not his Gohan training.

Cell wasn't going to blow up the planet if no one beat him at the Cell Games. How is that not a reason to fight?

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6769: Jun 12th 2014 at 7:05:07 PM

Any time Kid Goku got pissed his raw strength would go through the roof. same thing for Piccolo Jr and Demon King Piccolo.

Gohan's tail got pulled out nearly a year before the Saiyans arrived. Which was roughly the same time it took for Kid Goku's tail to regrow once the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi begna.

Goku only mentally aided Gohan because Gohan had transformed into a giant, uncontrollable Ape. And Vegeta wasn't exactly wiping the floor with Gohan, he put up a good fight.

Toriyama his said that Future Trunks became strong through Gohan's training. In the manga it even shows a very young Super Saiyan Future Trunks training with him. What other methods outside of training with Future Gohan could possibly lead to Future Trunks becoming a Super Saiyan? No Future Gohan training = No Super Saiyan Future Trunks. End of story.

Now I know you really didn't read the manga. Cell was totally gonna kill everyone on Earth if nobody could beat him at the Cell Games. Those are some pretty high stakes if you ask me...

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#6770: Jun 13th 2014 at 8:55:27 AM

What other methods outside of training with Future Gohan could possibly lead to Future Trunks becoming a Super Saiyan?

Nitpick: How about his father and everyone who could protect Earth from the Androids being dead, while the Androids regularly fly around blowing shit up and killing people for lulz? The Super Saiyan transformation isn't triggered by really hard training. Goku trained really hard at several points in his life without ever becoming a Super Saiyan, while Vegeta only managed to attain it when he stopped trying to train himself really hard up to it. Even Goku's training of Gohan to encourage him to transform wasn't about training him really hard, but was about instead trying to direct him to reach the proper emotional state.

Super Saiyan is an emotional response. It comes as a consequence of desperation, and there is a lot of that to go around in the Bad Future. That's not to say that Gohan couldn't have done for Trunks what Goku did for him in the Good Future, just making a point: becoming a Super Saiyan is not a matter of training.

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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6771: Jun 13th 2014 at 3:04:01 PM

[up] Future Trunks didn't even know about his father or the Z Fighters because they were all killed by the Androids when he was still and infant. Remember the Androids began attacking Earth only six months after the Goku in that timeline kicked the bucket form that heart virus.

  • Age 766 - Future Trunks is born
  • Age 767 - Android 17 and Android 18 are activated and Android 17 instantly kills Dr Gero
  • Age 767, 12th May - Android 17 and Android 18 kill all of the Z Fighters

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6772: Jun 13th 2014 at 3:58:26 PM

Regarding Dragon Ball Xenoverse. I never really knew exactly what a "xenoverse" was, funny thing about that. So I did some research and in turns out that a Xenoverse contains multiple metaverses. A metaverse contains multiple multiverses. A multiverse contains multiple universes. Wow, talk about going deeper right?

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#6773: Jun 13th 2014 at 4:18:00 PM

And then Marvel Comics coined Omniverse, which is every single plane of existence that ever existed.

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FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6774: Jun 13th 2014 at 7:14:36 PM

Was surfing the "Dragon Ball" section of You Tube, searching for entertaining fights to watch and kill time and came across the fight that made me uncomfortable as kid watching it and still kinda give me chills watching it to this day... Videl vs Spopovich. Videl is one kickass fighter but also took one hell of an ass kicking and nearly had her head crushed while she was screaming and crying in pain. The whole fight was just unsettling, especially when you take into consideration that everybody is literally begging Videl to give up so she doesn't end up being beaten to death. But the real scary thing about this fight that I never really took into consideration until recently is that it puts into context how absurdly powerful the Dragon Ball universe is. Because Videl, with power level no higher than 20 was able to kick Spovovich, a super enhanced human, in the face so hard it twisted his head 180 degrees! On any other human martial artist who is close to strength of Videl, that kick would kill you! In know the human martial artists in the original Dragon Ball were already really strong, but... damn...

But by the far most brutal scene I have ever witnessed in Dragon Ball was when Piccolo shot a hole through Goku's chest and proceeded to not only stomp on the hole but to also shoved his elbow into it. THAT. WAS. GRAPHIC. I literally remember covering my face the second Piccolo started stomping one the wound in Goku's chest and then turning off the TV when Piccolo shoved his elbow into the wound, it was too much for me.

Special mention to Imperfect Cell, he gave me nightmares...

edited 14th Jun '14 6:28:20 AM by FireShadow

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#6775: Jun 13th 2014 at 10:32:39 PM

Yeah. The Videl vs Spopovitch fight was pretty rough.

Against anyone else, it wouldn't have even gone that far. I actually think that Videl was probably the more skilled of the two in terms of fighting ability, but Spopovitch just had the inhuman level of power (none of the Z-Warriors could turn their neck around after having it broken like that.....I think).

Truthfully though, if Videl had tried to give up, Spopovitch would have probably stopped her. He was clearly enjoying himself way too much.

edited 15th Jun '14 8:48:06 AM by HandsomeRob

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