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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#53601: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:06:28 PM

I'm not sure where all the complaints about Goku not justifying himself come from.

Goku relishes a fight. The idea of 70 of the best fighters from 7 different universes ganging up on him makes him happy. Why ruin that?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53602: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:21:20 PM

I don't think the Priest is telling Zenou what to do, but so far I do think he's actively encouraging his whims. A few times it feels like he's making conclusions for Zenou rather than simply speaking for him, but even so it's presented more like Zenou just doesn't want to bother making those decisions and leaves it to the Priest, rather than the Priest pulling a Babidi and trying to think for him.

This episode does also give us the first instance of Zenou actually confirming that he's actively committed to the idea, the lack of which was one of the reasons I was suspicious before. When Bergamo asks him to stake rescinding the rule on the match, he's all "I've already made my decision, but you amuse me so why not?"

[up] It's less him being excited and more him responding to people being afraid that he's some kind of villain by giving them exactly what they want to see. Him responding to Bergamo's "you want to wipe us all out! But we'll fight back! We'll survive, and see you erased!", and the other universes' subsequent fear, with "Send all your strongest warriors! I'll defeat them all!" is not exactly the most heroic response. He's not only not defending himself, his tactlessness had led him to take every opportunity to make himself look even more like the bad guy.

The Perspective Flip in this episode is so strong it's probably intentional. They're playing with it: we know, objectively now, that Goku is only tangentially at fault here and has no bad intentions. But he's still getting ironic scenes where he plays the typical villain role you would get in this sort of plot. When Bergamo was left broken in a heap, I was like "this is just like that episode of YYH where Toguro curbstomps Yusuke before the Dark Tournament and Yusuke realizes he has to get stronger or die... except that would make Goku Toguro... which is weird..."

edited 4th Mar '17 10:31:49 PM by KnownUnknown

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#53603: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:32:39 PM

Yeah but it's hard for me to care all the same. Goku is Goku, and there's nothing he can do about the situation anyway so I'm nonplussed by his words.

edited 4th Mar '17 10:32:53 PM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53604: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:39:23 PM

As the audience, we know Goku isn't a bad person despite his eccentricities; so trying to paint him as the villain kinda rings hollow.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53605: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:41:32 PM

I do hope that we get a couple episodes before the chaos begins for introductions of at least most of the other 62 new warriors.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#53606: Mar 4th 2017 at 10:51:30 PM

Ya know, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a ruse by Zen-Oh's and Priest to just get the tournament contenders to fight harder for the sake of a better fight. Same reason why Goku called an assassination on himself from Hit.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53607: Mar 4th 2017 at 11:48:02 PM

They're not painting him as the villain for the audience, they're painting him that way to the other characters. It's Dramatic Irony.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#53608: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:02:32 AM

Exactly, we're shown that the other universes view him as the villain, not that he actually eyes. Do he's not doing himself any favors either.

@Soble:

You git it wrong, the fight against Universe 9 was an exhibition match. It wasn't part of the survival tournament, it was just for future Zen'o's benefit and amusement.

edited 5th Mar '17 12:06:02 AM by Cortez

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#53609: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:04:59 AM

Yeah, even Whis, who is a pretty neutral party in all circumstances, thinks that Bergamo's attempt to focus all the blame on Goku was "underhanded". If he thought Goku was truly deserving of that, he wouldn't have made such a comment.

edited 5th Mar '17 12:05:31 AM by DarkHunter

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53610: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:45:19 AM

Yeah, Bergamo seems to have been trying to throw some negative hype on Goku without necessarily believing it - he reminded me a bit of a professional wrestler. Arguably for a good cause: he might have been trying to put on a good enough show that Zenou would agree to lifting the erasure clause. There was, at the moment, little other practical reason to make everyone hate Goku beyond making himself look good in comparison.

Though after his defeat and witnessing Goku's battle junkie behavior, he started actually believing his own story.

Speaking of erasure, it's kind of funny that the Tournament has a No-Kill rule, given that teams who lose are dead anyway. I guess it's a mechanical thing: if you kill your opponents, you don't have to worry as much about getting them out of the ring, and the ring-outs are intended to be the primary challenge.

The big thing that feels weird about the whole thing being a single huge Battle Royale is that it means the tournament is going to be a lot shorter than it seemed, and there's almost certainly going to be less focus on individual teams then we thought as well. Though the more I think about it, the more I think it's a really smart writing move.

One thing I was worried about when it started looking like it would be whole team vs whole team head to head was that there were too many characters to develop, keep track of and have fight in tandem. But having everyone be in the ring at once removes the problem, ironically. With 10 vs 10, there's just few enough that each character needs to be unique. But in an 80 person brawl, you have so much stuff going on that more characters can be nondescript, or mooks, or simply easily defeated, with the prime unique characters being very few and prominent.

A lot of the exposition and setting stuff in this arc is really smart. I was gushing about the exposition for why the universes were getting erased and how certain ones are exempt for ages - it's simple but adds so much framework and potential for future plots.

edited 5th Mar '17 12:48:35 AM by KnownUnknown

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#53611: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:46:11 AM

It's less him being excited and more him responding to people being afraid that he's some kind of villain by giving them exactly what they want to see. Him responding to Bergamo's "you want to wipe us all out! But we'll fight back! We'll survive, and see you erased!", and the other universes' subsequent fear, with "Send all your strongest warriors! I'll defeat them all!" is not exactly the most heroic response. He's not only not defending himself, his tactlessness had led him to take every opportunity to make himself look even more like the bad guy. The Perspective Flip in this episode is so strong it's probably intentional. They're playing with it: we know, objectively now, that Goku is only tangentially at fault here and has no bad intentions. But he's still getting ironic scenes where he plays the typical villain role you would get in this sort of plot. When Bergamo was left broken in a heap, I was like "this is just like that episode of YYH where Toguro curbstomps Yusuke before the Dark Tournament and Yusuke realizes he has to get stronger or die... except that would make Goku Toguro... which is weird..."

I find that more interesting and I think Goku might be doing it on purpose for a better fight.

Toriyama's thoughts on Goku are always fascinating.

Toriyama: At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

Goku isn't interested in child-rearing, probably. He's completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn't even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn't have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he's not interested in. I'd bet he wouldn't have had any interest in marriage, either.

The main character Goku is a strong, pure, good person, but he’s also a battle-obsessed, hopeless case of a human being, who has some issues as a father. Yet for some reason, he possesses a mysterious, lighthearted charm that keeps his circle of friends growing and growing.

Dragon Ball, or rather, Goku’s basic rule isn’t defeating an enemy, but “winning”, so he doesn’t mind whether it’s a good guy or a bad guy.

Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#53612: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:47:09 AM

I agree. What they're doing with Goku's character continues to be the most interesting thing in an already very interesting arc.

edited 5th Mar '17 12:47:36 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53613: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:47:59 AM

I don't think Bergamo was wrong at all. Everything he said was technically correct, and he has no reason to believe otherwise than his accusations. He may have painted a target on U7, but from his perspective, he was right to paint a target on U7, because from his perspective, U7 spawned the most dangerous mortal to ever live.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#53614: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:52:34 AM

Yeesh Goku is one hell of a flawed individual under his pen.

I hope he doesn't have fun in the actual tournament. I honestly cannot imagine that one one will not take this battle with near %100 seriousness. As I mentioned before I wouldn't be surprised if some of the warriors actually broke out crying in despair if they lost. It be really powerful if Goku honestly found no enjoyment in this massive battle cause he honestly feels bad what's happening & even possible guilt that the whole thing could have been his fault when it really wasn't.

Also again I think everyone like Bergamo believe Goku is more than he appears. They think he's some magnificent bastard in league with or manipulating Zeno somehow to start the tournament done solely to satisfy his own apparent bloodshed.

edited 5th Mar '17 12:54:40 AM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53615: Mar 5th 2017 at 12:56:09 AM

That's sad...

Would be sad.

If Karrot can't enjoy the one thing he "loves" doing.

Just because a few universes will get erased.

"Bloodlust"

edited 5th Mar '17 12:57:58 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#53617: Mar 5th 2017 at 1:19:14 AM

And was already used with Future Trunks' timeline. Doing it again would be redundant.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#53618: Mar 5th 2017 at 1:21:21 AM

These aren't alternative universeries...

They are unique...so it's not quite the same.

But they can still just die off.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#53619: Mar 5th 2017 at 1:35:44 AM

@Ssj 3 Gojira

It's not just you, i think they're a cute couple too.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#53620: Mar 5th 2017 at 4:42:11 AM

Bergamo was trying to throw Goku off his game by turning the audience against him. He just totally misread how Goku would react to such a pressure.

I'm not sure what to think about the Battle Royal format. Seems like it will be a mess.

I'm expecting Goku to trounce Toppo, which will set up the Grey Trooper trying to avenge him.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#53621: Mar 5th 2017 at 6:47:13 AM

Alright, the Daishinkan is making way too many sinister faces.....maybe he's doing it for dramatic effect, but it's still unnerving...why make a sp00ky face when you're talking about how big an arena is going to be?

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#53622: Mar 5th 2017 at 6:49:56 AM

Toriyama's thoughts on Goku are always fascinating.

Where's all that from?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#53623: Mar 5th 2017 at 7:00:53 AM

Goku being flawed as he is makes sense since he's already based on Sun Wukong, who was a fucking asshole for most of his life both in the mortal realm and in the realm of the gods.

Watch Symphogear
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#53624: Mar 5th 2017 at 7:06:11 AM

[up][up]

It's been stated a few times on this thread. I think it's from one of the Daizenshuus.

Also:

Goku isn't interested in child-rearing, probably. He's completely unqualified to be a father. (laughs) He doesn't even have a job. Goku wants nothing other than to get stronger, and it feels like he doesn't have any other instincts. So he shows absolutely no interest in things he's not interested in. I'd bet he wouldn't have had any interest in marriage, either.

See, this has got me thinking on something that's been in my head for years:

If you didn't think he'd be a good dad (not that I'm saying Gohan shouldn't exist), or that he should get married, then why did you even do it?

I feel like it didn't really add anything to Goku as a character, and Chi-chi (who wasn't much of a character before hand) was arguably made worse by it in some cases.

As for asshole Goku, I don't know what I want to happen to him in the tournament (or even in this match with Toppo) but I do know that I want it to be interesting.

What really frustrates me about the whole thing is that he hasn't considered how this affects his friends who will be competing with him? Despite his intentions, it's not just him they'll be targeting. It's gonna be a rude awakening when poor Krillin gets shanked again because someone wanted to hurt him to mess with Goku (sure, Goku will stomp that person, but still).

edited 5th Mar '17 7:06:20 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#53625: Mar 5th 2017 at 7:08:23 AM

Rob, you talk as if death has consequences to them. If they win, it doesn't, and if they lose, they're all dead anyway.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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